Episode 44

Where Do the Food Lies Begin? Searching for Sapien Wisdom with Brian Sanders

Published on: 24th January, 2023

Brian Sanders is the brain behind the upcoming film series Food Lies and the Instagram account by the same name. His work with Food Lies and his podcast, Peak Human, is about uncovering the lies we’ve been told about food. We dive deep in this podcast to explore where the engine driving the lies in our food system might have gotten its start. How far back does it go? We look at the beginning of agriculture all the way to the Rockefellers to find answers. The shaping of our food system has major implications for the systems of modern day life past the food system and we peek at our education system, medical system, financial system, and more. At the heart of this conversation, though, is how our relationship with food makes us human and whether or not we can return to the meaning of the Homo Sapien (wise human) or if we’ll continue to fall for the lies we’re being sold. 

We Also Talk About: 

  • Community as a nutrient and its role in our lives
  • Satiety and its importance 
  • & so much more 

Timestamps:

0:12:08: Brian’s Background

0:17:43: Where being human and food intersect

0:25:42: Power structures and food

0:31:23: Where the food lies begin. 

0:42:19: Where the food lies meet big money

0:46:07: The weaponization of the greater good 

0:52:09: What to do to get out of a broken system/exit the matrix

1:04:08: Are humans wired for comfort and how do we dig into discomfort?

1:14:00: Are humans capable of long term thinking?

1:26:00: Community as a nutrient

1:29:49: Satiety 


Find Brian:

Instagram: @food.lies

Podcast: Peak Human

Film Website: Food Lies 


Resources: 

The Deliberate Dumbing Down of America by Charlotte Thomson Iserbyt

Eat Like a Human by Bill Schindler

Peak Human Guest: Gary Fettke

Peak Human Guest: Ted Naiman on Satiety

Peak Human Guest: Mary Ruddick on Debunking Blue Zones

Justin Wren on Joe Rogan re: Community


Also Mentioned in Intro:

What Good Shall I Do Conference


Current Discounts for MBS listeners:

  • 15% off Farm True ghee and body care products using code: KATEKAV15
  • 20% off Home of Wool using code KATEKAVANAUGH for 10% off
  • 15% off Bon Charge blue light blocking gear using code: MINDBODYSOIL15


Join the Ground Work Collective:

Find a Farm: nearhome.groundworkcollective.com

Find Kate: @kate_kavanaugh

More: groundworkcollective.com

Transcript
Kate:

Howdy.

Kate:

I'm Kate Kavanaugh, and you're listening to the Mind, body and Soil Podcast where

Kate:

we're laying the groundwork for our land, ourselves, and for generations

Kate:

to come By looking at the way every threat of life is connected to one

Kate:

another, communities above ground, near the communities, below the soil, which

Kate:

mirror the vast community of the cosmos.

Kate:

As the saying goes, as above so below, join me as we take a curious journey

Kate:

into agriculture, biology, history, spirituality, health, and so much more.

Kate:

I can't wait to unearth all of these incredible topics alongside you.

Kate:

Hello and welcome to the Mind, body and Soil Podcast.

Kate:

I am your host, Kate Kavanaugh, and together we are laying the

Kate:

groundwork for generations to come.

Kate:

One of the things I've really loved about this spate of podcasts at the beginning

Kate:

of the year is that they're very focused on history and as we focus on biology and

Kate:

regenerative agriculture and nutrition and spirituality even, and, and sort

Kate:

of the art of what it is to be human.

Kate:

This has been a new exploration for me, and this episode is no different.

Kate:

I was so excited to dig in with Brian Sanders, who you might know

Kate:

as Food Lies on Instagram, or maybe you've seen hints of his upcoming

Kate:

documentary with the same title.

Kate:

Food Lies Really exposing the machinations of how our food system ended up.

Kate:

We did and last week we had on James Connolly, and I think in a lot of

Kate:

ways he ended up laying a lot of the groundwork for this conversation.

Kate:

And this conversation is going to build on a lot of these historical themes.

Kate:

And one of the things, and I didn't plan this that is most fascinating

Kate:

to me, is that they don't overlap, but they very much really create this

Kate:

whole picture of the recent history in the last 150 years of how our.

Kate:

Current food paradigm really came into existence, and I think that

Kate:

this is incredibly important for a couple of different reasons.

Kate:

Number one, it's really important to kind of consider how we got here because in

Kate:

having all of these conversations about how we, how we might shift the paradigm

Kate:

and how we might create alternative systems, it's important to understand

Kate:

the foibles of what has happened.

Kate:

And I think it's also important to understand what we're up against.

Kate:

And so that's kind of that second point is that this behemoth, what

Kate:

Anthony Gustin called while he was on this podcast, the corporate organism

Kate:

that has been created is, Is something that we have to understand and I think

Kate:

understand as, as much as possible.

Kate:

And so these, these two episodes really give us a lot of historical

Kate:

context for how our food and healthcare system really got to where they are.

Kate:

And I'm just, I'm so excited to bring you these, and I think in particular, this

Kate:

episode with Brian was really exciting.

Kate:

Number one, Brian Sanders and his podcast Peak Human is prolific.

Kate:

He's had incredible guests on and absorbed so much of their knowledge.

Kate:

His lines of inquiry are really fantastic as he explores this through

Kate:

the limbs of the Food Lies documentary.

Kate:

And he's, he's really digging deep here on this podcast.

Kate:

Him and I were kind of, Troubleshooting some ideas, like we were drawing

Kate:

some conclusions together as we were moving through the conversation.

Kate:

And that's the real magic of podcasting to me, is that I can lay

Kate:

out this outline for a conversation and sometimes it goes that way and

Kate:

sometimes it goes completely differently.

Kate:

And sometimes there's really a meeting in the middle where a conversation

Kate:

happens and some real salient points start to get created in real time.

Kate:

And this is, this is one of those podcasts which makes it a, a really big gift.

Kate:

So I encourage you all to give it a good listen through.

Kate:

We definitely cover a wide gamut of a lot of different topics,

Kate:

and I think everything really comes together at the end.

Kate:

And I can't wait to hear your thoughts.

Kate:

Please let me know.

Kate:

Before we get started, we just have a couple of accounting things to cover

Kate:

together, and one of them is a conference called What Good Shall I Do Put on by

Kate:

the folks at Force of Nature meets.

Kate:

Now, I'm not a fangirl and force of nature, invited me down to do a butchery

Kate:

demo with them at the beginning of December, which we'll talk more about in

Kate:

an upcoming episode, but, When in without many expectations, which is often how I go

Kate:

into things, and what I found was just the most stunning, wonderful, warm, welcoming,

Kate:

knowledgeable group of people I think I have ever encountered, and I instantly.

Kate:

Became a fan girl of this group of humans that is putting

Kate:

together force of nature meats.

Kate:

And if you've seen them online or in the grocery store, they have really

Kate:

fantastic ground meats with organ blends.

Kate:

They are doing a lot of good work for ground meat and I am

Kate:

very passionate about that.

Kate:

But they put on a conference and this year is their second annual conference,

Kate:

and it is a really incredible space to explore the community above ground as

Kate:

well as the community below ground that exists in the soil and to really access

Kate:

Mother Nature's capacity for healing.

Kate:

And it's going to be ranchers and nutritionists and consumers

Kate:

and biologists, everybody coming together to really talk about this

Kate:

space, really, that we're all in and that we're all interested.

Kate:

Here at Mind, body and Soil together, and you know, I'm going to be speaking.

Kate:

So that's a pretty, pretty motivating reason to be there, as well as giving

Kate:

a butchery demo with my husband Josh.

Kate:

But Anne Bley, who was a guest on the podcast is going to be there.

Kate:

Judith Schwartz, Joel Sellan, Kelly Lavec.

Kate:

Like there is just a really fantastic lineup here.

Kate:

And so we'll have a link to that below.

Kate:

I don't make any money off of this.

Kate:

I just actually am really encouraging everybody to come

Kate:

and partake in community.

Kate:

If you've been on the fence about this event, now is the time.

Kate:

Um, and so this is, this is just my.

Kate:

Public service announcement and our next bit is just, hey, we're here.

Kate:

We've switched over from the Groundwork podcast to the Mind, body

Kate:

and Soil Podcast and I am so excited for this year's slate of guests.

Kate:

We have some incredible people coming up and I just want to take a moment and

Kate:

thank you for listening over the last nine months and for being here for the

Kate:

evolution into the mind, body, and soil.

Kate:

We're going to be exploring even more with some incredible

Kate:

guests as well as just with me.

Kate:

And if this show is resonating with you, if you could just hit

Kate:

subscribe and maybe drop a reading and review in Spotify or Apple Podcast

Kate:

wherever you listen so that other listeners can, can find this podcast.

Kate:

It's just a little active reciprocity in this space and I really appreciate it.

Kate:

Okay.

Kate:

It's such a pleasure to be here with you.

Kate:

Let's dig into this incredible episode with Brian Sanders of the Peak Human

Kate:

Podcast of Food Lies Documentary and Instagram and the Sapien Center

Kate:

down in Austin, as well as nose to tail, where you can get all kinds of

Kate:

amazing regeneratively raised, grass fed, ground meats, and so much more.

Kate:

Let's go.

Kate:

So we find ourselves in the dark nights of winter, and when

Kate:

that's the case, our bodies are naturally producing more melatonin.

Kate:

And I love to support that cycle even more by using a little bit of hacks

Kate:

that help with my circadian biology.

Kate:

And my favorite company for this is Bonard or Bon Charge,

Kate:

however you wanna pronounce it.

Kate:

And I have been using them since 2019 when I bought my first pair

Kate:

of blue light blocking glasses that are still going strong.

Kate:

Now what I'm using these days to help create a space that is circadian friendly

Kate:

are bon charge's incredible light bulbs that are daylight appropriate.

Kate:

So they have several different colors of bulbs ranging from,

Kate:

from daylight to amber to red.

Kate:

They are all flicker free, which is something that's so important

Kate:

to me when we're talking about LEDs and they are free of blue light.

Kate:

That flicker free means that there's no flicker that is

Kate:

going to be sub perceptual.

Kate:

It's not going to be something that we notice, but our bodies

Kate:

do notice it and it can.

Kate:

Lead to low level activation of our sympathetic nervous system, something

Kate:

that I'm definitely looking to avoid.

Kate:

And so we have decked out our house in bone charges, incredible red

Kate:

lights, which is what we turn on when we come back from doing chores in

Kate:

the evening, when the sun has set to really prime our bodies for great.

Kate:

Sleep is at the crux of the most important practice in my life.

Kate:

And so getting great sleep is just so important to me, and that's why I trust

Kate:

bone charge with my light environment.

Kate:

And if I am going to do work on a screen after dark and I really want to help with

Kate:

that melatonin cycle, which Blue light disrupts because it sends our body that

Kate:

signal that it's the middle of the day.

Kate:

I use my blue light blocking glasses.

Kate:

They have a fantastic sleep mask that I use at night to

Kate:

create darkness for myself.

Kate:

And I just think that this is a great company.

Kate:

You can get.

Kate:

15% off your first order using the Code Mind Body Soil 15.

Kate:

That's the name of this podcast, mind Body Soil 15 for 15% off your first

Kate:

order of circadian biology, supporting goodies from light bulbs to blue

Kate:

light blocking glasses to daytime blue light blocking glasses, and everything

Kate:

else by just going to bonard.com.

Kate:

Like I said, been using this company for four years and I trust them completely.

Kate:

So get 15% off your first order with the Code Mind Body Soil 15.

Kate:

Hi, Brian.

Kate:

It's just such a pleasure to be here with you today.

Kate:

Hello.

Brian:

I'm so glad to be

Kate:

here.

Kate:

Kate , I wanted to, I, I really thought a lot about this interview and really

Kate:

exploring how food makes us human, and I wanted to start us off with talking

Kate:

about your human journey with food and what brought you to this place.

Brian:

Yeah.

Brian:

It's been a nine year journey for.

Brian:

I kind of got woken up when I turned 30 and I lost my

Brian:

parents around that same time.

Brian:

And it was also when I turned 30 and I couldn't eat whatever I wanted

Brian:

anymore and I got by for a long time.

Brian:

I think a lot of people get by, especially cuz I was an athlete my

Brian:

whole life and always playing sports and active so you kind of can stay

Brian:

relatively thin and relatively in shape.

Brian:

But I was just getting all these problems that people get as they

Brian:

age and I thought it was normal.

Brian:

You know, I thought it was normal to have indigestion and heartburn

Brian:

and joint problems and just all kinds of things and allergies.

Brian:

I'd had allergies my whole life and all these little things that, and just getting

Brian:

a dad bod and all these kinds of things.

Brian:

And then I changed my diet, which we can get it to later, but everything changed.

Brian:

I, I just made a simple switch in my diet.

Brian:

Every, all those problems went away, my allergies went away,

Brian:

that I've had my whole life.

Brian:

They can come back.

Brian:

If I eat a piece of bread, even if it's sourdough, I I'll

Brian:

have allergies the next day.

Brian:

I'm just finding that out.

Brian:

I have like the last remnants of little allergies.

Brian:

From Thanksgiving weekend, it's in, it's

Kate:

incredible how much, just, just a little bit off will shift everything.

Kate:

I experience that all the time in my, my diet and I'll venture just a

Kate:

little bit off the beaten path and find these downstream effects that

Brian:

surprise me.

Brian:

It's crazy.

Brian:

And then I realize that, oh wait, that's, people just don't even know

Brian:

that they feel off or sick or halfway, you know, 50, 60% their whole life.

Brian:

Because I was that, I was just going down this road where I was

Brian:

just gonna get worse and worse.

Brian:

I was gonna get on medications, I'm sure, and I would just have never have known.

Brian:

So I don't, yeah, I don't take any over-the-counter medications.

Brian:

I don't take any other medications.

Brian:

I just don't see a doctor.

Brian:

Everything's changed in the last nine years and part of that

Brian:

story is my parents, like I.

Brian:

Cancer, Alzheimer's.

Brian:

That was a big wake up call.

Brian:

How do I not fall to the same fate?

Brian:

And I, I looked at what they did, especially retrospectively,

Brian:

now that I know more.

Brian:

And it was confusing because they followed all the right things.

Brian:

They followed the government guidelines, they followed the food pyramid.

Brian:

It's a, it's amazing.

Brian:

People say, oh, no one falls in food pyramid.

Brian:

I'm like, oh, absolutely.

Brian:

This is just common knowledge.

Brian:

Every it, it goes, it's not like people look up the food pyramid and then post it

Brian:

on their fridge, but it's, you learn about in school, all of the doctors repeat it.

Brian:

Everything in society just.

Brian:

Is built around it and we were eating seven to 11 servings of whole grains.

Brian:

We're doing, we're cooking our own food, doing all that stuff.

Brian:

You know, low fat products, lean chicken, avoiding red meat, everything.

Brian:

Everything that the food brewer said we did the fruits and

Brian:

vegetables, absolutely everything.

Brian:

Didn't go out to eat.

Brian:

It was a huge treat to go out to eat yet.

Brian:

, they still ended up with these problems of, and I think cancer and

Brian:

Alzheimer's are very, very diet related.

Brian:

Maybe not all of them.

Brian:

Absolutely right.

Brian:

Yeah.

Brian:

But so, I mean, people listening probably know this, but if you just, you know, talk

Brian:

to a random person off the street, they'd be like, oh, well that's just genetic.

Brian:

And I am saying absolutely not.

Brian:

Absolutely not that There's way more to it, as you know, and

Brian:

we can get into that stuff too.

Brian:

But I, I wanted to figure out how I could change my diet and lifestyle so that I,

Brian:

even if I did have certain, you know, genetics, that I wouldn't express those

Brian:

genes and I would not have those problems.

Brian:

And so far it's looking like all that stuff is working out.

Brian:

So that's my origin story.

Kate:

I love your origin story and I've listened to you talk about this on a

Kate:

couple of other podcasts and I wonder if I might ask you a personal question that

Kate:

you can kind of beg off if you don't wanna answer it, but we've been talking a lot.

Kate:

Grief on this podcast and its ability to transform the roads

Kate:

that we take in our life.

Kate:

And I feel like you have this real crossroads with your parents passing

Kate:

and it changing your trajectory from mechanical engineer into this

Kate:

whole world of food and nutrition.

Brian:

Yeah, it was a huge change in my life, but I don't know if I've even

Brian:

dealt with this grief yet, and I, yeah, I haven't really talked about it publicly,

Brian:

but I, I'm not afraid to talk about it.

Brian:

I actually went to some sort of wellness event last weekend in Austin and, and

Brian:

first started talking about stuff.

Brian:

It was very interesting to, to share with other people these things about my

Brian:

family and that I, I never do address maybe, and, and I told them, you

Brian:

know, I've never been to a therapist.

Brian:

I've never talked to anyone about any of this stuff.

Brian:

And they were all just like, you need to this.

Brian:

It's very effective.

Brian:

It's, it's very powerful and maybe I still need to do something, but I

Brian:

guess my way of dealing with it was to go down this path and dedicate

Brian:

my life to this and just, I really just quit all that whole world.

Brian:

After mechanical engineering, I got into tech and I learned a lot

Brian:

about, you know, design and tech and all this stuff that helped.

Brian:

But I could have, you know, just had a six figure salary and gone on with my life.

Brian:

But instead I said, let's do this, let's make a film.

Brian:

Uh, the documentary's called Food Lies.

Brian:

It's been six years in the making and that's what set me down this path.

Brian:

And that, yeah, I guess that's what it been consuming my life is this hell stuff.

Brian:

It's, it's what I do from when I wake up until I go to sleep.

Brian:

and I don't.

Brian:

Me too.

Brian:

Yeah.

Brian:

And I mean, I've put other things aside.

Brian:

I've put relationships aside.

Brian:

I've put all kinds of stuff aside just to do this, so.

Brian:

Yeah.

Brian:

Yeah.

Brian:

Well,

Kate:

thank you because this is, this is big work.

Kate:

I wanna get into this and I, so I was going through your work.

Kate:

The thing that really stands out to me is how often you reference Human.

Kate:

And whether it's your podcast, peak Human, or your new Sapien community

Kate:

Center, there are these references back to being human, and of course, sapien,

Kate:

meaning wisdom or wise, or one who knows.

Kate:

I wanted to dive into this.

Kate:

Human relationship to food.

Kate:

I think a lot about how our relationship to food is really what makes us human.

Kate:

Whether you take an evolutionary stance and you look at how eating meat changed

Kate:

our brain capacity, or you look at how the dawn of agriculture 10,000

Kate:

years ago began to shift what it meant to be human and got into the realms

Kate:

of sociopolitical things with food.

Kate:

That food was really a driver for, for wars, for taxes, for

Kate:

ways of moving across the planet.

Kate:

And so I'd, I'd love to look through your lens of what is this

Kate:

relationship between being human and.

Brian:

Yes.

Brian:

It's such a big story and I learned a lot along the way from

Brian:

some great people, especially Dr.

Brian:

Bill Schindler.

Brian:

Give him a shout out.

Brian:

He's a pa, he's an anthropologist, archeologist, food scientist,

Brian:

author, you know, he is been on my show a couple times.

Brian:

He's in the film, but he taught me.

Brian:

The story of human being, human is food.

Brian:

Like they're one and the same.

Brian:

It's like every technology that we developed up until, you know, more

Brian:

recently has been revolved around food.

Brian:

Almost everything, even the wheel, it's probably, how do we carry food better?

Brian:

, you know, everything we've developed is around food and he, he, he

Brian:

studies this, he's obsessed with it.

Brian:

You should have him on your show.

Brian:

He will tell you all about that.

Brian:

It's either about acquiring food or preparing food.

Brian:

That that is every technology that we humans have developed really

Brian:

until, you know, whatever year.

Brian:

And it's either a hunting technology, what are the first technologies?

Brian:

Just hunting, right?

Brian:

It's um, and then with the plant foods, it's about acquiring, gathering.

Brian:

It's about detoxifying plant foods.

Brian:

It gets really into all the measures that ancient cultures and modern cultures

Brian:

that still do traditional methods use to prepare the foods properly.

Brian:

I mentioned sourdough as the correct way to eat bread.

Brian:

And no one eats like the real sourdough these days.

Brian:

Stuff in the store is fake.

Brian:

It just has ci acid in it to make it taste sour.

Brian:

It's not actually fermented, you know, and stuff like this.

Brian:

So I didn't, yeah, I didn't know

Kate:

anything.

Kate:

I didn't know that until I heard you say that on a podcast and I was like, Yeah.

Brian:

Okay.

Brian:

And no wonder everyone's having problems with bread.

Brian:

You know, I still don't eat bread, even if it is sourdough because

Brian:

I found it still doesn't work.

Brian:

And then you can get into the gut biker biome, and all kinds of gut stuff.

Brian:

And how that's probably the center of all disease is, you know,

Brian:

how our gut interacts with food.

Brian:

And it makes sense too.

Brian:

It's like what interacts with the world.

Brian:

It's like your GI tract is open to the outside world and

Brian:

food contacts it the most.

Brian:

You're eating kilogram quantities of food every day, and people are just like, eh,

Brian:

calories of calorie doesn't, you know, it's just about eating fewer calories.

Brian:

Like you're insane.

Brian:

This is, your entire body is interacting with this food on a daily basis.

Brian:

and it's the, I mean, just thing with the surface area alone.

Brian:

Yes.

Brian:

I wish I had these quotes of like how, you know, like this small

Brian:

intestine, it's like tennis, tennis

Kate:

courts.

Kate:

Yeah.

Kate:

I, I think it's a full tennis court, the small intestine.

Kate:

And this is, I mean, it's an elegant conversation that's happening

Kate:

between our environment and our biology through the medium of food.

Kate:

And there is this deep intimacy of what you're talking about that our GI tract

Kate:

is open to the outside world, that that is still the outside of our body.

Kate:

And here we are taking in food and it's interacting and all of it's chemicals.

Kate:

If we're talking about bread, we're usually talking about glyphosate and it's

Kate:

sending and relaying information about what time of year it is and where we are.

Kate:

And

Brian:

it's a huge rabbit.

Brian:

That I don't know if anyone has figured out yet.

Brian:

Right.

Brian:

All this stuff with the gut and we're, we're getting more into it now, and

Brian:

we're realizing like leaky gut or small intestinal ba bacteria overgrowth and

Brian:

all these things where you, the, these tight junctions in of our membranes of

Brian:

our, you know, intestines are opening up because of these different foods

Brian:

and how we've modified these grains and whether it be the, the glyphosates we've

Brian:

put on it or just the, the amount of gluten that we've bred into these new

Brian:

types of grains so that they're bigger and Cartier and, you know, all these

Brian:

things that have helped us get more food.

Brian:

But yeah.

Brian:

To go back a little more into the, the food story you

Brian:

mentioned so many other things.

Brian:

that it's shaped society and we are covering this in the film.

Brian:

And I, I think it's really interesting to look back at how we got here and

Brian:

how do we, how did we get to this crazy world that we're now with the crazy

Brian:

food system and people, normal people eating 80% of their diet from processed

Brian:

foods and just how, how do we get this?

Brian:

And big pharma sick care system, all this stuff is guided by

Brian:

food and it does go back.

Brian:

When we first domesticated grains.

Brian:

Actually, it's also to do with the processing and and

Brian:

profits in the processing.

Brian:

And that's something that I think we'll mention a lot today because I learned

Brian:

more about it and I'm sure you've learned about it, trying to sell well raised

Brian:

meat and that there's no profit margin.

Brian:

No.

Brian:

So it, it's insane.

Brian:

Yeah.

Brian:

I mean, I'm about to end my relationship with some of these

Brian:

ranchers because I can't make any money trying to sell good meat to people.

Brian:

And that's when I realized how much the processing matters and how much

Brian:

the, like if you take the cheapest ingredients possible and the most

Brian:

abundant ingredients, and the unhealthy ingredients, which is the refined

Brian:

grains, the seed oils and added sugar, it's like these three things make up,

Brian:

again, I'll throw out a number, 80% of foods of processed food, and they're the

Brian:

cheapest, three ingredients are the most shell stable and they are the worst for.

Brian:

And that's how people make money.

Brian:

And if you wanted to make money, you could just start some company instead

Brian:

of a good regenerative meat company.

Brian:

You could start some bar.

Brian:

It's like, oh, I'm gonna make a keto bar and it's gonna have, you

Brian:

know, all these cheap ingredients.

Brian:

It's gonna cost like $3 a bar, it's gonna cost like 28 cents to make.

Brian:

And then there's huge profit margin.

Brian:

And then we can do some advertising, we can do all kinds of things.

Brian:

And then I just really put it all together, this, okay, so

Brian:

this is how the world works.

Brian:

This is why the same like eight companies own the entire food system and why

Brian:

they can fund anything they want.

Brian:

Do lobbying, do whatever they can to keep the systems the same.

Kate:

I wanna tease something out because this was actually

Kate:

on my list to talk to you about.

Kate:

You know, I own a whole animal butcher shop and we've been in business for

Kate:

10 years and we only source whole animals and it's all regenerative and

Kate:

grass fed, and you own eat nose, tail, and you're helping bring regenerative

Kate:

ranchers to people's doorsteps and there is no financial incentive to do so.

Kate:

And in fact, I think it's incredibly difficult to make it work.

Kate:

And I know that we have held on by the skin of our teeth as a business over the

Kate:

last 10 years, and I'm sure we'll get into this more in the podcast, but financial

Kate:

incentive, I think is what has driven a lot of where we are today in food.

Kate:

And it's interesting to look at it from the opposite lens of trying to do the

Kate:

best thing and having it be incredibly d.

Brian:

Well, now I know why no one does it, and even people in the space, I'm

Brian:

trying to, you know, not go bankrupt.

Brian:

I'm trying to actually just support myself.

Brian:

I can make the film, right?

Brian:

Yeah.

Brian:

And, and, uh, all I want to do is make the film do podcasts and, you know,

Brian:

do content on this to wake people up.

Brian:

And so I need to obviously pay my rent and bills.

Brian:

And now I realize why everyone else in the space made, I don't know, liver

Brian:

pills like , highly processed pro.

Brian:

I'm not, I'm not against them and I'm friends with those guys, but it's

Brian:

like, it's something that costs $54.

Brian:

And it's like a ground up liver that's could cost you $1.

Brian:

So I get it now.

Brian:

And to tie up what I was saying before, going back into history, I always love

Brian:

to go talk about the Egyptian days.

Brian:

You know, that's when this, this first kind of power structures even

Brian:

developed and shape society where people could tax and store these

Brian:

products and accumulate wealth.

Brian:

And that was the first time that we went away from the more egalitarian societies

Brian:

where people were almo pretty equal.

Brian:

And we had, you know, hundred gatherer tribes of different sizes.

Brian:

And maybe there, you know, there were, were surely some sort of different

Brian:

hierarchies, but nothing compared to what happened when we process all the

Brian:

grains and tax them and stored them.

Brian:

And so there's the pharaohs and then there's the peasants and there

Brian:

wasn't many people in between.

Brian:

And when I look at society today, it's.

Brian:

Pretty much the same and people don't really realize it.

Brian:

You know, it's kind of, when you pop out of the matrix, I feel like a lot

Brian:

of people have been coming out of the matrix in the past couple years.

Brian:

Uh, I call it, you know, getting red pill.

Brian:

It's the same thing, right?

Brian:

You take the red pill instead of the blue pill, you realize, oh, wait a second.

Brian:

Our world is still in this same power structure of people at the top pulling

Brian:

all the strings and a whole bunch of peasants basically trying to survive.

Brian:

So , I don't know if you, how I think you agree.

Brian:

Oh, I

Kate:

agree.

Kate:

I agree completely.

Kate:

And I think that that's, that's a really important lens to look

Kate:

through is that this is that same structure, that hierarchical structure.

Kate:

And I go back to this idea that, you know, a around the same time that Earl Butts

Kate:

was the Secretary of Agriculture in the seventies and said to get bigger, get out.

Kate:

Henry Kissinger, who's controversial in his own right, but was the Secretary

Kate:

of State and he said, control oil.

Kate:

And you control nations control food and you control people.

Kate:

And I think that when you look at history, whether you're looking at

Kate:

the Egyptians or, um, mark Kurlansky does a beautiful job in his book, salt

Kate:

of Covering how, how Salt was used to control people and taxes that you see.

Kate:

That food was used as a mechanism of control and also

Kate:

of division between classes.

Kate:

And

Brian:

it still is.

Brian:

And it still is.

Brian:

And it still is.

Brian:

And that's why I think most people listening see this.

Brian:

And you know, my crowd sees the writing on the wall.

Brian:

You know, I, I post about this stuff about all, you know, the fake meat, it's

Brian:

the Beyond Meats, but then it goes into the cell derived meats, you know, the

Brian:

actual Gro, you know, lab grown meat.

Brian:

It goes into pushing of bugs, you know, and people say, oh,

Brian:

that you guys are so stupid.

Brian:

You guys are your bug conspiracy theories.

Brian:

No one's gonna make you eat bugs.

Brian:

Like, I'm not saying that that's happening today, or that, I mean, I think they are.

Brian:

Yeah.

Brian:

I think that it definitely is heading that direction.

Brian:

Yeah.

Kate:

Yeah, I mean, I think they're setting this up and I, you know, I

Kate:

had Tara Couture on the podcast and we talked about legislation, the way

Kate:

that legislation is going in Canada or New Zealand or Ireland, where they're

Kate:

beginning to tax cattle just from small farmers, from homesteaders even, uh,

Kate:

for their, for their climate emissions.

Kate:

That this is all part of moving us towards eating, eating bugs, eating more

Kate:

processed food that is making us sicker and is making us more complacent, maybe

Kate:

more sedentary and changing our biology.

Kate:

Like to get back to that first idea that food is what shapes

Kate:

our human organism, I think.

Kate:

, it shaped it positively as it helped our brains grow and change us, and now it's

Kate:

having a negative impact on the human

Brian:

organism.

Brian:

All those things, plus testosterone for men.

Brian:

It's got, it's like half of what, it was just a few cent, a few, a decades ago.

Brian:

I mean, people, this is an accident.

Brian:

That's what I found, and I'm glad you talked to Tara.

Brian:

Tara's the greatest person ever.

Brian:

She's in the film.

Brian:

I did the, her first, I, I, I put her on her first podcast ever five years ago.

Brian:

It was amazing.

Brian:

I, I found her from Instagram and her amazing nutrient dense meals

Brian:

and, and actually the greatest, as someone asked me recently, what

Brian:

was the greatest meal in my life.

Brian:

And I said, we filmed with Tara Tour three years ago, or three and a half years ago,

Brian:

and it happened to be on my birthday.

Brian:

And she made me two meals that were like, unbelievable.

Brian:

There was no amount of money that could have covered these meals.

Brian:

Everything was raise.

Brian:

By her own hands and from her own land.

Brian:

And it was absolutely incredible.

Brian:

And there was like 30 different dishes that she, you know, she's prepared

Brian:

anyway, life, life changing meal.

Brian:

But it goes back to these systems of control around food.

Brian:

I mean, I guess we're talking to the right crowd where we don't have

Brian:

to sound like conspiracy theorists, that this is tactics that have been.

Brian:

To control people forever.

Brian:

And like I said, it's, it's on purpose.

Brian:

I think it's like, I don't think once I looked into this simple science of red

Brian:

meat being healthy and having tons of nutrients that are bioavailable and all

Brian:

the things we need to survive, and now there's this big carnivore community

Brian:

that's just showing the world that you could just, just eat meat and survive

Brian:

and do amazing and, and be healthy.

Brian:

I'm like, okay, so this is just basic science that this is

Brian:

healthy and the entire world is telling us that it is bad for.

Brian:

From, from the top down.

Brian:

Right?

Brian:

All the powers to be Now.

Brian:

That's how I know there's something going on.

Brian:

You know, it's not like, oh, let's look at something.

Brian:

It's like they're, they're trying to say that french fries are healthy,

Brian:

and then we're like, uh, I don't know if french fries are healthy.

Brian:

You know what I mean?

Brian:

It's like, it's so opposite that it has to be

Kate:

rigged.

Kate:

I agree.

Kate:

I'm, I mean, you're taking the most nutrient dense food on the

Kate:

planet and you're vilifying it.

Kate:

And I actually, I have this question for you because one of the things

Kate:

that's been percolating for me, and I think obviously these systems of

Kate:

control around food have been in place throughout history and Wing Point at

Kate:

a lot of different points in time.

Kate:

But I have this question, you know, as, as your account is called Food

Kate:

Lies and the film is called Food Lies.

Kate:

Where does a lie start?

Kate:

And one of the things I've really noticed, especially around meat and

Kate:

its vilification in the media, is that while there, there was groundwork,

Kate:

whether you're talking about Ansel Keys or whatever it was, there were

Kate:

these kind of these initial things that started us off down the road maybe.

Kate:

But then it gets parroted and people stop using their own judgment and

Kate:

looking at these, these truths.

Kate:

And this is in quotation mar, these truths about food and really reconciling

Kate:

it with their own, through their own logic, through their own common sense.

Kate:

And it just gets.

Kate:

Parroted over and over again.

Kate:

And so there's this question of what is the engine driving

Kate:

the lies in the food system?

Kate:

Like how do these lies start?

Brian:

Yeah, you're right.

Brian:

What, there was like a foundation of lies that with Ansel Keys and there's

Brian:

this whole era in the fifties and sixties where it all started and you know, we

Brian:

covered that in the film and then they're perpetuated, then they get into the

Brian:

medical books and then, you know, it's, it takes generations to undo that basically.

Brian:

And maybe we're seeing a little bit of that being undone lately, but I

Brian:

think it, it starts way before that.

Brian:

Uh, so I got red pilled even more in the past three years and I started

Brian:

to look back and kind of understand more about how the world works.

Brian:

And I kind of realized more about that there, there aren't any accident.

Brian:

that everything is headed in the same direction.

Brian:

Like with the climate stuff mixed with, which gets into the carbon credits and

Brian:

like, there's so much that that touches.

Brian:

I don't know if people understand how, how big of a tactic the

Brian:

climate stuff is and Sure.

Brian:

No one wants to ruin the climate or, you know what I mean?

Brian:

I mean, it's completely separate things like, yes, of course we're not, we don't

Brian:

wanna just pollute the world, we're just gonna have factories polluting everything.

Brian:

We're just gonna have like factory farms just like, just having run o

Brian:

you know, we don't obviously want that, but people don't understand

Brian:

what a tool, how big a tool this was.

Brian:

And I actually just was watching videos on this last night about

Brian:

climate scientists speaking out on it.

Brian:

She was kicked out of, you know, all of her academic jobs and system

Brian:

and she had to go off on her own cuz she's not following the narrative

Brian:

and she says the same thing.

Brian:

Yeah, of course we're not advocating for just destroying the planet and just

Brian:

doing, you know, terrible practices, but this is not at all what it's.

Brian:

Seems to be, this is a tactic, a tool for control to centralize power.

Brian:

And this stuff started in before, even before, I'll just go back

Brian:

to 1980s cuz that's what this certain one was talking about.

Brian:

It's like there wasn't even a big like C-level rise or CO2

Brian:

problem, whatever they're trying to say that happened in 1980.

Brian:

Yet they already had meetings and policies about.

Brian:

And on the world scale, we're talking the UN and you know, the W H O and

Brian:

these big figures to start implementing these things because they understood

Brian:

that if we can use this giant looming destruction of the world as a tool, we

Brian:

can gain power and centralize systems and govern the world on the world level.

Brian:

And they, and I like to watch these videos of people talking about this stuff.

Brian:

The people admitting that there was, you know, world's government

Brian:

goals and you know, people like to call these conspiracy theories.

Brian:

A new world order or the great reset is the new thing.

Brian:

This is not a conspiracy.

Brian:

This is happening right in front of us and it's been documented and

Brian:

there's great books about this and there's so many tangents we can go on.

Brian:

Even with the medicine side.

Brian:

Rockefeller Medicine, I don't know.

Brian:

Heard about this.

Brian:

There's like a whole kind of documentary on that, on how the Rockefellers shaped

Brian:

the medical system into the sick care system and how this was purposefully,

Brian:

this was all documented by certain people that, you know, no one knows about

Brian:

this unless you dig around, that this sick care system we have was by design.

Brian:

That they, the, the Rockefeller group and you know, some others realized

Brian:

the potential of pharmaceuticals, drugs, and petroleum based drugs

Brian:

and surgeries for money making.

Brian:

And they pretty much stamped out any natural healers and they basically

Brian:

coined the term quack like quackery.

Brian:

Interesting.

Brian:

Quack.

Brian:

Yeah.

Brian:

That was a propaganda technique.

Brian:

It was actually invented as a way to, to discredit any natural

Brian:

healing methods or natural doctors.

Kate:

And it survives today.

Kate:

I, and I think there's something interesting in everything that you're

Kate:

saying too, is that one of the things that I think is incredibly insidious

Kate:

about the way that, that this has been, I'm gonna say orchestrated, is that it's

Kate:

changed our beliefs about what it is.

Kate:

To be human right, that we believe, and I think that this is the

Kate:

narrative that's being fed to us.

Kate:

That we are a scourge on the earth and this is the fault of the individual

Kate:

that climate change is, is on you.

Kate:

If you would just drive an electric car, which I mean that, that's a

Kate:

whole, that's a whole Pandora's box.

Kate:

We could open, um, or eat less meat or.

Kate:

Stop using straws, then all of this could change when you know if that's happening.

Kate:

It, it's happening at the corporate level, not at the individual level.

Kate:

And so there's this big, like they have shifted our beliefs that we don't

Kate:

belong here on earth as humans, that we're not a part of the environment.

Kate:

There's this constant separating of us from nature, from the

Kate:

environment and increasing that

Brian:

schism.

Brian:

Yes, yes.

Brian:

And that's what I found.

Brian:

And the more you look into it, the more you see it.

Brian:

And then it becomes clear that, like I said, none of this was an accident.

Brian:

That they are trying to push us away from understanding where our

Brian:

food is from, push us away from, you know, growing our own food.

Brian:

That solution is.

Brian:

Let's do it for you.

Brian:

We, we have it under control.

Brian:

We're gonna give you the processed food, the, the new soy burgers

Brian:

or the, the milk alternatives.

Brian:

We have the solution.

Brian:

Another thing I like to say is, how I know it's all fake, is that

Brian:

their solutions always skip the, the real solution and go straight

Brian:

to something they can make money on.

Brian:

So it's like, oh, feedlots are bad.

Brian:

Completely skip regenerative ag.

Brian:

The stuff, you know, completely skip over.

Brian:

So they never talk about things that we've been doing forever.

Brian:

And they'll just be like, so the so feedlots, bad soy burger's good, right?

Brian:

They completely skipped it to something that they sell.

Brian:

And this is always the case.

Brian:

The same thing we're saying.

Brian:

blame me on the, in individual is a huge tactic.

Brian:

It's like there's these subversion tactics that are used to like control

Brian:

societies at large, and the, and yes, if, if, if it's you, you're

Brian:

the problem, you skip the solution.

Brian:

Right?

Brian:

Skipping the solution of going back to being a human, like living closer

Brian:

to the land, closer to how your food is grown and just you can't use

Brian:

straws or you have to drink fake milk.

Brian:

Right.

Brian:

That it always skips a problem into something

Kate:

they're selling.

Kate:

I think that's really, that's a really salient point.

Kate:

I love that you pointed that out and.

Kate:

I, I wanna pull the sick care system back into it because I think that it's

Kate:

vertical integration at its worst, right?

Kate:

It's the, it's the idea that if you make a corn chip, if a corn chip company

Kate:

and an antidiarrheal medication are owned by the same parent company, then

Kate:

what if they were inclined to make the corn chips give you diarrhea, right?

Kate:

That, that you are then going to be dependent.

Kate:

And if you create a food system that is making people sick and then you offer the

Kate:

solution in the form of pharmaceutical drugs, sounds like a pretty good

Kate:

system to me from a profit standpoint.

Brian:

It's genius.

Brian:

It's genius.

Brian:

I'm actually gonna post something today.

Brian:

Someone sent me a video.

Brian:

It's like some stupid like TikTok video, but it's really good.

Brian:

Or Instagram videos.

Brian:

It's do you want to be part of the solution or part of the problem?

Brian:

Why not both?

Brian:

And it's Bayer.

Brian:

Monsanto, right?

Brian:

And it, it was a little, there's a more to it, but Bayer, Monsanto,

Brian:

well, they're the same company now.

Brian:

They Yep.

Brian:

You know who acquired who, but that's exactly what's going on.

Brian:

And it's, our entire world works like that.

Brian:

You can look at any system and it'll be like that and, and I

Brian:

love to get into this stuff.

Brian:

It's like, why is our education system like this?

Brian:

Why is it so bad?

Brian:

Why is it just pumping out people who, who can't think critically,

Brian:

who just are following this same narrative, who are canceling each other?

Brian:

All this stuff.

Brian:

Then I read a book, deliberate Dumbing Down of America, and this

Brian:

woman, Charlotte isbe researched this from the early 19 hundreds.

Brian:

Again, this is not like a fictional book or narrative book, it's just documented

Brian:

quotes and excerpts of this education system being shaped in a certain way.

Brian:

And she goes back to 1900 and it's like she talks about how they

Brian:

just wanted basically worker bees.

Brian:

They wanted people to not critically think and they were successful.

Brian:

Why I read the first half of this book and it blew my mind, and I'm thinking about

Brian:

the people, same groups of people, these huge tycoons, you know, the Rockefellers

Brian:

and all these people you've heard of with all the money that had all the oil and

Brian:

the, the steel money back in the beginning of, you know, late 18 hundreds, early 19

Brian:

hundreds, shaped this to their advantage and how successful it was that I think

Brian:

about how our education system is now, especially our universities that are.

Brian:

So, I don't know, I don't wanna get political.

Brian:

Right.

Brian:

They, they would be rolling in their graves if they saw what was going on

Brian:

today because they would never have, or actually I would say they'd be laughing.

Brian:

I mean, I mean they would be cackling at the success of what they put.

Brian:

Just read some of this book.

Brian:

You can get it on online for free.

Brian:

It's a free pdf.

Brian:

It's hard to read like a free p like some, it's very dry reading.

Brian:

But it's amazing.

Brian:

They're like, this is what was set up.

Brian:

This, this is not an accident.

Brian:

This is designed to create worker bees.

Brian:

It's called Skinner Tactics, which is how you train a dog, which is basically

Brian:

like get a treat for doing something and just memorizing things essentially.

Brian:

And so much can be learned from history.

Brian:

And, and we got onto this topic cuz you asked about the, like when did the lies.

Brian:

And it definitely wasn't ENL keys.

Brian:

You know, that's when in the fifties and sixties, Eisenhower had a heart

Brian:

attack and the, and you know, the whole thing was, okay, what are we gonna do?

Brian:

What's the heart disease was just becoming a problem, actually.

Brian:

What was the problem?

Brian:

People were smoking and, and just the, the seed oil.

Brian:

So the, the margin, the crystal, all this stuff just came out in

Brian:

the 1918, somewhere around then.

Brian:

And it just became a big part of the diet in the forties, fifties, right.

Brian:

This is what the first wave of disease coming from the hydrogenated

Brian:

oils and crisco's and margarine's and all that, plus smoking.

Brian:

Everyone, you know, seeing the clips of those days, they're like smoking

Brian:

in the car, smoking in the elevator, smoking in their baby's room, and.

Brian:

And then they're wondering why there's heart disease.

Brian:

So that, I mean, the, the big lie started way before that.

Brian:

And again, if in every system, like I said, food system, the education system,

Brian:

the banking system, if you wanna look into that, look into the Federal Reserve

Brian:

and how that was created and Oh yeah.

Brian:

How that is not part of the government.

Brian:

That was like basically hijacked and I need to get my years right.

Brian:

Maybe it was 1914, this group of, it was

Kate:

1917.

Kate:

1917.

Brian:

Jekyll Island.

Brian:

Jekyll Island.

Brian:

This group of bankers hijacked the system.

Brian:

Basically.

Brian:

They're so powerful that they could take over, basically just take over congress.

Brian:

This all happened also during Christmas.

Brian:

It was like, it was this whole thing when, um, people were out of town and

Brian:

away and they like kind of passed through this law and took the federal reserve

Brian:

out from the government and made it, it's basically a private institution

Brian:

that controls the whole monetary system.

Brian:

So you have the monetary system, you have the education system, which you know,

Brian:

you can read about and see how that was controlled with the food and the farming,

Brian:

and then the pharmaceutical system.

Brian:

And you can, you look into the, you know, the Rockefeller stuff and

Brian:

Rockefeller medicine, if you search that keyword, it might be hard to find.

Brian:

Maybe we can link to it, but.

Brian:

Then you realize that every system is just controlled from it.

Brian:

I think it started in, I don't know how far back you can go.

Brian:

Definitely the late 18 hundreds, the early 19 hundreds.

Brian:

A lot of this stuff started, and again, not an accident.

Brian:

It was designed and orchestrated and I, and one reason, the simple

Brian:

way to kind of know this is it always went in their favor.

Brian:

If you could think of anything, you take anything and then say,

Brian:

would it go this way or would it go that way if it was just by chance?

Brian:

, it should al it should go, you know, either side, but 100% of

Brian:

them go to big centralization side.

Brian:

Right.

Brian:

Every time it goes to the right side that

Kate:

they want.

Kate:

Yeah.

Kate:

And you have this perfect storm.

Kate:

And I mean, when you put it together like that and you pull in these pieces,

Kate:

you pull in the education system.

Kate:

I had on a, a guest, his name is Will Roche.

Kate:

He's a, he's a high school teacher out in LA and, and really big into heterodox

Kate:

thinking and really teaching kids how to be curious, not teaching them what to

Kate:

think, but teaching them how to think.

Kate:

And this is something that we've really missed in our education system.

Kate:

And here we find ourselves sick, obese, uh, testosterone at a precipitous decline.

Kate:

The system has been set up for, for failure, for centralization, and I, I,

Kate:

I'm honestly a little bit at a loss for words because as you, as you speak about

Kate:

skipping that step, I see something that I hadn't really seen before

Kate:

that we're constantly skipping over.

Kate:

What feels like the next logical step in favor of feeding profits.

Kate:

And I think that while it might have started in the late 18

Kate:

hundreds, early 19 hundreds, the groundwork was late for that.

Kate:

Historically.

Kate:

I mean, when we're talking about the, the withholding and taxation of salt or

Kate:

talking about grains in, in Egypt, being a part of the diet of slaves and very

Kate:

profitable, the basis for that is there.

Kate:

It

Brian:

is, it is.

Brian:

And when you, once you kind of realize this is how the world works, it's kind of

Brian:

sad and it, it hurts you and you, you're trying to figure out what to do about it.

Brian:

And it's really hard because you have to go against these

Brian:

huge systems and huge powers.

Brian:

But the, the really, the answer always is to go away from the centralization.

Brian:

It's always going away from this new system.

Brian:

They wanna set up to being human again.

Brian:

And that is a tagline.

Brian:

Speaking of Dr.

Brian:

Bill Schindler.

Brian:

I mean, his tagline is, eat like a human again.

Brian:

You know, but it's like everything is just, that answer is to do it

Brian:

how our ancient ancestors did it.

Brian:

And not that I am, you know, I, I think some people make fun of people

Brian:

who are into ancestral diets are looking to the past cuz they're

Brian:

just like, oh yeah, we're gonna just go wear a loincloth and go in a.

Brian:

And, you know, and they try to minimize it.

Brian:

That it, obviously we're not saying that, obviously we're saying there's a way to

Brian:

do both and live in a modern society, but look to the past for the solutions.

Brian:

And it's looked to the decentralized method of, of everything would be

Brian:

the solution or the, just the more, what's good for the individual is

Brian:

not good for the powers that be.

Brian:

Or if you think of all these things, it's actually a bigger topic that I,

Brian:

I'm still getting my head around, is the greater good, the concept of the greater

Brian:

good is a weapon that's used against us.

Brian:

It was used against us in the past three years.

Brian:

Everything that was is supposed to be done under the guise of

Brian:

greater good climate change.

Brian:

You have to do it for the greater good.

Brian:

You know, eat, eat this rice and beans instead of meat for

Brian:

the greater good everything.

Brian:

And take this pharmaceutical

Kate:

drug for the greater good.

Brian:

For the greater good.

Brian:

And it's, but you have to just look at what's good for the mat.

Brian:

I mean, it's a weapon cuz you could easily think, yeah, but

Brian:

it is for the greater good, or I should think about my neighbors.

Brian:

You can't get caught up in that thinking.

Brian:

You have to think of yours like the opposite is usually what's

Brian:

better for the individual.

Brian:

And by serving individuals health and wellness and wellbeing in your

Brian:

family and friends, you can affect the greater good by being healthier.

Brian:

Hopefully this makes sense.

Brian:

I, I'd love to talk about how, how to feed the world.

Brian:

A great friend, um, Dr.

Brian:

Oh, he's from, he's from Tanz, Tasmania.

Brian:

He's from, uh, what is that?

Brian:

Gary Feki, I dunno if you've come around.

Brian:

This guy, Dr.

Brian:

Gary Feki, he looked into the beginning of veganism and why, how it came about,

Brian:

and he, he traced it back to the late 18 hundreds with a woman, Ellen G White

Brian:

and the Seventh Day Adventist Church.

Brian:

It's amazing story.

Brian:

She listened to my podcast with him.

Brian:

It's F E T T K E, Dr.

Brian:

Gary Feki.

Brian:

But he, people always ask, okay, so how do we feed the world?

Brian:

Right?

Brian:

You, you're into regener of ag, you're into eating glocal, seasonal

Brian:

foods, whole foods, all that.

Brian:

How do you do that?

Brian:

Said, you can't think about feeding the world.

Brian:

No one can think that big.

Brian:

You think you feed your community and by default you've fed the world.

Brian:

Think, think about that.

Brian:

If every community fed themselves, you would have just fed the world.

Brian:

, right?

Brian:

You can't, like, when you start thinking about feeding the world

Brian:

on a mass scale, you're screwed.

Brian:

Then you send sacks of grains to Africa.

Brian:

That's not how you feed the world.

Brian:

Sending sacks of grains to Africa is what we try to do.

Brian:

In the nineties, the, I don't know if you remember that there was like

Brian:

commercials for, you know, uh, on TV to, you know, send, you know, for

Brian:

a dollar a day you can feed this.

Brian:

That was a nightmare.

Brian:

It's basically, Pumping Monsanto, like GMO grains and all these different

Brian:

things that screw them, right?

Brian:

It's

Kate:

screwed them.

Kate:

Yes.

Kate:

I have the, I in this feed the world category.

Kate:

I have a butcher friend in South Africa, and I don't know if people know this,

Kate:

but we send a lot of our chicken hend quarters across the world because

Kate:

we only boneless skinless chicken breasts here in the United States.

Kate:

Not saying the listeners of this show, but as a general rule of thumb.

Kate:

And she had this whole saying like, we're full.

Kate:

Thank you.

Kate:

And while that's not true, ostensibly from, from what people are experiencing,

Kate:

we have to build local communities.

Kate:

This global food system has proven that it doesn't work on multiple different

Kate:

levels, but it's incentivized by corporate prophets or what Anthony Gustin

Kate:

called the corporate organism on a, on a, on a different episode of this.

Brian:

Yeah, I love Anthony.

Brian:

We were talking about him before the show . I'm here in Austin,

Brian:

but it is, and we're full.

Brian:

So I, I've heard of so many of these stories of even shoes.

Brian:

They're like, oh, let's get all these shoes to Africa, or these poor

Brian:

countries that just disrupted the entire bi their economy and it put

Brian:

all these shoemaker out of business.

Brian:

You know, there's all these unintended consequences and I don't know if

Brian:

there's a video on this or, or some more information somewhere, but you

Brian:

can look it up and it's amazing.

Brian:

You're like, oh yeah, of.

Brian:

, right?

Brian:

These poor people, they're trying to make a living, making their own shoes,

Brian:

and they, they were doing okay in getting their fellow community shoes.

Brian:

It's like, what happened is all these other food, well, to tie in

Brian:

the food thing is all these cheap grains came in for free , right?

Brian:

They got dropped off there.

Brian:

That ruins their farming system.

Brian:

People, you know, now had cheaper or free grains and then they

Brian:

could spend money elsewhere.

Brian:

It screwed up everything.

Brian:

And then they, they needed to get free shoes, you know what I mean?

Brian:

They were doing fine before when they were making their own

Brian:

food, making their own shoes.

Brian:

When big interest came in, it screwed everything up.

Brian:

And so I, I got on this tangent because if to feed the world,

Brian:

you feed your community.

Brian:

You don't just start at the top and try to do it on the way down.

Brian:

And it's the same thing.

Brian:

This greater good notion is being used against.

Brian:

Like I said, health-wise, covid stuff, climate change, whatever it is, you

Brian:

gotta think about it differently.

Brian:

Think about it as how can I help the individual myself, my friends, my family,

Brian:

my community, if I get myself healthy, if I don't spend a ton of money on healthcare

Brian:

because I am eating the right foods and have a good lifestyle, and, you know,

Brian:

all these things that you can do to help yourself is for the greater good.

Brian:

I have no burden on a healthcare system because I don't use the healthcare

Brian:

system that could be saving millions of dollars over the course of my life.

Brian:

Yeah, right.

Kate:

like that.

Kate:

Yeah.

Kate:

I mean, in a, we live in the United States where healthcare spending

Kate:

sits just below $4 trillion per year.

Kate:

Would that change?

Kate:

You know, with single diabetes patient is $14,000 per year in the healthcare system.

Kate:

But

Brian:

if every diabetes patient realized, or they were even told that

Brian:

they could reverse their diabetes, their type two diabetes with diet and

Brian:

lifestyle, then maybe some of them would.

Brian:

Or what if we focus on that?

Brian:

What have we spent half that amount to give them programs

Brian:

and guides to actually do that?

Brian:

I, the world would be completely different, but of course that's never

Brian:

gonna happen and that doesn't profit the powers that be and they're just

Brian:

gonna be like, type two diabetes is a slow, progressive disease.

Brian:

There's no curing it.

Brian:

Just take more insulin.

Brian:

You'll be on more insulin for the rest of your life.

Brian:

There's no proven way to reverse type two diabetes yet all the doctors I know

Brian:

are doing that on a daily basis with simple dietary changes and lifestyle

Kate:

changes.

Kate:

Yes.

Kate:

Okay.

Kate:

So we find this ourselves at this point.

Kate:

We're sick.

Kate:

We're indoctrinated and dependent on systems that were designed to make

Kate:

us dependent on them and centralized, and we wanna get back to living a

Kate:

more ancestral human lifestyle, living like a human within the context of

Kate:

modern society and decentralizing.

Kate:

What

Brian:

do we do?

Brian:

Well, you could take each topic separately for the food part.

Brian:

People already know if they've listened to your show before or know

Brian:

anything about you or, and I, you know, you go to local ranchers, right?

Brian:

You find people using regenerative methods and you buy it straight from them.

Brian:

I tell you, you don't have to order it on nose to tail.

Brian:

You can also just go, you know, even use your site where you can find

Brian:

where, where they're located near you.

Brian:

I tell people to go to weston price.org.

Brian:

They have a, a tool where you can find ranchers in every state and mil, you

Brian:

know, raw milk and all these resources go to tell people all the time.

Brian:

I would lived in LA for so many years of my life, concrete jungle,

Brian:

yet there was four farmer's markets that I could bike to, right?

Brian:

Like, this is, you have no excuse really.

Brian:

So with the, the food stuff, you just need to, to go just be simple.

Brian:

I have a little story cause I was Thanksgiving weekend, you know, visit some

Brian:

friends of family of friends of family.

Brian:

There was some distant connection.

Brian:

I was in Arkansas of all places and these people were like gluten free, like, oh,

Brian:

I'm gluten free, I'm a nutritionist.

Brian:

And they were, all they're eating is highly processed products and

Brian:

everything was gluten free and it was bags and bags of fake breads with 30

Brian:

ingredients and all this stuff like you.

Brian:

And they were not doing well.

Brian:

They're sick all the time.

Brian:

You know, it's this whole story like why are, we're sick for like the

Brian:

eighth time in the past three months.

Brian:

It was insane.

Brian:

So I'm like, okay, you need to get simple.

Brian:

We need to don't, yeah.

Brian:

Gluten and freeze is a good idea.

Brian:

Instead of getting all the process alternatives, just don't need the bread.

Brian:

who needs it?

Brian:

Like, why don't you just eat real foods?

Brian:

So this, I mean, you can get meat, you can get eggs.

Brian:

You get vegetables, you can get fruit.

Brian:

You're done.

Brian:

Like, you don't need anything else.

Brian:

We've, we've not had anything.

Brian:

You know, for most of history and the, the bread is a whole nother story, but

Brian:

you know, mean it was raised differently, different systems, different kind of

Brian:

breads, fermented, all this type of stuff.

Brian:

So food obvious one is just eat real food, eat animal foods, you know, I

Brian:

don't need to preach to the choir.

Brian:

The other stuff's a little bit harder.

Brian:

, uh, cuz then you have to start going into like, homeschooling, you know,

Brian:

it's like how do I get outta the system?

Brian:

Well there's also al alternative schools too.

Brian:

I know they're popping up around here.

Brian:

You, you could either do group schools, there's Montessori type schools.

Brian:

There's, uh, I forget the other names for them.

Brian:

Right?

Brian:

Do you know any other names?

Brian:

Forest

Kate:

schools?

Kate:

Um, I mean, it, it, it's tough now.

Kate:

It used to be Waldorf.

Kate:

I think that's, that's in a different situation now,

Kate:

depending on what your views are.

Kate:

But I think that there is a return to that.

Kate:

And I think one of the things that my husband and I talk about, we don't have

Kate:

kids, but we've talked about it, we've talked about schooling, is that, The way

Kate:

the state education is the experiment.

Kate:

Homeschool is the, is the norm.

Kate:

That is what it is to be human, is to raise our children in a, in a

Kate:

pack, in a community with us learning on the job, as it were, and, and

Kate:

not in state funded education.

Brian:

What's called, I call 'em government schools now.

Brian:

People call 'em public schools.

Brian:

, I've not a great name.

Brian:

It's like there's nothing public.

Brian:

These are not public schools are government.

Brian:

Like, and it just goes through the whole thing.

Brian:

It's like who fund everything?

Brian:

It's just a government school.

Brian:

So Yeah.

Brian:

I know it's hard, but try not to use the government school system.

Brian:

They're only gonna pump out what benefits them.

Brian:

Uh, what else is there?

Brian:

There's finance stuff.

Brian:

I'm actually not super sure about Bitcoin.

Brian:

A lot of people think Bitcoin's a solution.

Brian:

I don't think so.

Brian:

I think it's another.

Brian:

It's kind of tool or weapon that's in disguise.

Brian:

And I think there's been some stuff going on lately that's that.

Brian:

Well, I don't wanna get into the FTX stuff, but I think some of this stuff

Brian:

with the cryptocurrencies, it's like a controlled demolition basically to

Brian:

bring in regulations around this stuff.

Brian:

And also to normalize and usher in a central bank digital currency, C B

Brian:

D C, and I think this is all coming.

Brian:

So we kind of touched on it earlier about these, like what's

Brian:

gonna the future gonna look like?

Brian:

And I think it's Central Bank digital currency, right?

Brian:

So it's like this, oh, it's like Bitcoin, but it's like the better

Brian:

one cuz it's the government.

Brian:

And I'm like, oh wait.

Brian:

So that's just something that you guys can control.

Brian:

And it's already happening in China and it's been happening for years

Brian:

where they have all these systems, like from the social credit score to even.

Brian:

Even since 2017, they, they got fine PE you could, there's so many cameras that

Brian:

if you jaywalk you just automatically get deducted a certain amount of money.

Brian:

And that started in 2017.

Brian:

Yeah.

Brian:

So I think this is a future.

Brian:

So you have e central bank digital currency.

Brian:

They're like, oh, well you didn't, well yeah, you didn't

Brian:

get this certain treatment.

Brian:

You didn't, you know, the, the next pandemic, you didn't follow the.

Brian:

You didn't stay home, you didn't do this or that.

Brian:

Okay, well now you just can't use your bank account anymore.

Brian:

Or we can just deduct a certain amount of money.

Brian:

Or, the climate thing I think is really gonna play into that because

Brian:

they're already starting to do, like you said, there's the taxes on animals.

Brian:

And so pretty soon it's gonna be okay, well we've shown that cows

Brian:

and ruminant animals are bad for the climate and there's a tax

Brian:

on that and you have a limit.

Brian:

So now you've hit your, your carbon quota for the week on red meat and

Brian:

milk and you can't have anymore.

Brian:

And they have the things in place, which looks like it's headed to with the

Brian:

apps and the, you know, tracking apps, monetary systems, digital currencies.

Brian:

Then they can actually control it.

Brian:

Then it's like, okay, well you can't, your, your card, your whatever, or

Brian:

your digital money doesn't work on meat products anymore cuz you've hit your quote

Brian:

for the week or the month, your quota.

Brian:

So the stuff is all happening right in front.

Brian:

and you can kind of see it happening as each kind of disaster

Brian:

emergency that's unfolded.

Brian:

It, it's always an opportunity to have more control.

Brian:

If, I dunno if people have noticed this, like even like the Patriot Act,

Brian:

it's like nine 11, okay, now there's this huge sweeping list of new laws

Brian:

and things that have happened every.

Brian:

Everything that happens.

Brian:

Yeah.

Brian:

There, it's just an excuse to have more control and more

Brian:

laws and take away freedoms.

Brian:

And so I, it's no conspiracy what's going on.

Brian:

It's, it's heading to this thing of controlling what people eat, how they

Brian:

move, how they spend money, and it's based on the guise of greater good and of

Brian:

the climate and of your fellow citizens and don't kill grandma and all this.

Brian:

And it's, it's like so.

Brian:

and then to, to the rest of the world.

Brian:

No idea what's going on.

Brian:

Like I talked to my brother back in Hawaii, everyone in Hawaii's brainwashed,

Brian:

they're stuck in this little island.

Brian:

I'm from Hawaii, . Uh, but they, uh, I go back often.

Brian:

I'm like, you guys are just ready and willing to take whatever

Brian:

the government tells you and go

Kate:

along with it.

Kate:

I think sometimes too though, it's comfortable, right?

Kate:

Like to, to sit on the precipice of what I think is a lot of change

Kate:

within the world and to imagine what it is to go outside of the system.

Kate:

It's uncomfortable.

Kate:

Like it's uncomfortable to think about homeschooling your kids and

Kate:

sourcing all of your food locally and completely overhauling your diet and

Kate:

not tapping into the sick care system and overhauling this belief system that

Kate:

has been purposefully instilled in you.

Kate:

And so that is something that I at least like to hold in this, is that

Kate:

it's uncomfortable and it's not.

Kate:

Easy.

Kate:

Especially when we haven't been taught how to think.

Kate:

We've just been taught what to think.

Brian:

Well, you're so right.

Brian:

You're so right.

Brian:

I've thought about this a lot and I have a great mentor in this, a guy I

Brian:

grew up with in Hawaii actually, who, who's kind of clued me in cuz he got

Brian:

red pills about 17 years ago, and has been looking, he's the one that's kind

Brian:

of showed me all these primary sources.

Brian:

He doesn't send me, you know, blog posts or like little memes or Instagram videos.

Brian:

He sends me, you know, firsthand documents of like, Happened in the last a hundred

Brian:

years, and it made a lot of sense to me.

Brian:

It's like, okay, if my brother was to change his views, it would ruin his life.

Brian:

His wife doesn't believe in this stuff.

Brian:

He, he would get fired from his job.

Brian:

He, you know, like so many things could happen.

Brian:

It's beyond just comfortable.

Brian:

It's, you are stuck in this system and it's, it's almost impossible to change

Brian:

your thinking without ruining your life.

Brian:

You're institutionalized and by design.

Brian:

Yeah.

Brian:

And, and then, so anyone who thinks differently is

Brian:

labeled conspiracy theorists.

Brian:

So I think just like the quackery thing, it's like the conspiracy theorists I

Brian:

think is another big thing by design.

Brian:

You know, anything that goes.

Brian:

Outside the system, but then we're like, wait, but that was proven

Brian:

to be true, like 10 years later.

Brian:

And you're like, no, you're still a conspiracy theorist.

Brian:

And so it's designed that way, and I can see why people don't want to change.

Brian:

And I know that my brother, I, I try to get through him a little bit,

Brian:

but then he's just, he'll reject it.

Brian:

It's almost like you're, it's this cognitive dissonance where I can

Brian:

see him start to understand it, and then the next day he's like,

Brian:

yeah, but I have my normal job.

Brian:

I my family.

Brian:

Like I'm in this system.

Brian:

And if I start to think that way, like my brother, I will lose everything.

Brian:

I could lose my marriage.

Brian:

I could lose my job.

Brian:

And so then they just snap back into the matrix.

Kate:

I think you said the magic two words here, which is cognitive dissonance.

Kate:

And I think as we talk about a lot about this, that cognitive

Kate:

dissonance keeps coming up.

Kate:

My husband and I, whether we're talking about electric cars and where

Kate:

people think the energy comes from when they plug it into the wall, or

Kate:

what it takes to mine, lithium or whatever piece of that supply chain.

Kate:

Or we talk about the sick care system, or we talk about some of

Kate:

these, quote unquote, you know, what has been deemed conspiracy

Kate:

theories is cognitive dissonance.

Kate:

And it's, it's that inability to see past the veil and to be able to

Kate:

hold it and you'll see it and then you'll just kind of push it off.

Brian:

By design.

Brian:

By design.

Brian:

And I'm glad that, yeah, I did go to a good school in Hawaii actually.

Brian:

Well now they turn really woke and I don't, I, I wouldn't go there anymore.

Brian:

I used to think it was the best school ever, but they actually

Brian:

taught critical thinking.

Brian:

It sounds kind of like your guest that taught how to think instead of

Brian:

what to think and, and I think that actually really benefited my life.

Brian:

And some people that have come outta the matrix, uh, I mean a lot

Brian:

of my friends from that, Do stop the ability to critically think.

Brian:

And it's hard.

Brian:

It actually takes maybe years to even get over that cognitive dissonance.

Brian:

And you have to like really step back and like try to unlearn things

Brian:

and unthink the way you've thought.

Brian:

And it's not easy.

Brian:

And yeah.

Brian:

You said uncomfortable.

Brian:

A lot of things are uncomfortable yet changing your diet is, is uncomfortable.

Brian:

No one wants to change.

Brian:

Again.

Brian:

I was with friends' family in Arkansas.

Brian:

The doctor told him, you gotta stop eating this food.

Brian:

They, no matter how, you know, it's got the second stent, whatever,

Brian:

heart pro, you know what I mean?

Brian:

The whole thing.

Brian:

The guy's not doing well, won't change, we'll not change.

Brian:

He was sitting there eating Pop-Tarts and the daughter's yelling at him.

Brian:

I'm like, you wanted info from me?

Brian:

I'll give you the info.

Brian:

He won't take it.

Brian:

. What I try to tell people with the, the uncomfortable part is, and this is what I

Brian:

try to tell him, once you get to the other side, it's just as good, if not better.

Brian:

The change is uncomfortable.

Brian:

Yes.

Brian:

I didn't want to change my diet nine years ago.

Brian:

I loved eating, you know, whatever.

Brian:

It was just like processed foods and delicious snacks and whatever.

Brian:

It was just easy and cheap and packaged and I thought it was great.

Brian:

And now I realize I hate that food and I don't like to eat it.

Brian:

And it's, it's better, like I said, it's either the same or better on the other

Brian:

side it's the change is the hard part.

Brian:

And something with humans, it's like they're so resistant to

Brian:

change cuz they're like, the dads are, well, I mean I eat poptarts.

Brian:

I, he was eating poptarts one day.

Brian:

He had Eggo the freezer waffles the other day cuz that's just what he does.

Brian:

And I'm like, you realize if you were just eating some bacon and.

Brian:

You would like it more.

Brian:

Right.

Brian:

But, and I know he likes bacon.

Brian:

You know, I talk about the this stuff.

Brian:

He's like, you love me.

Brian:

He's like, I love meat.

Brian:

You.

Brian:

It is like, okay, well you're, people have this idea that they're

Brian:

gonna go on a diet well, because all the diet advice is wrong.

Brian:

So they have this idea that they're gonna go on this diet and it's gonna

Brian:

be salads without dressings and rice cakes, or I don't know what people eat.

Brian:

Deprivation.

Brian:

Yeah.

Brian:

Deprivation.

Brian:

And it's gonna be plant-based and it's gonna be gross and they're not gonna

Brian:

be full and they're gonna be miserable.

Brian:

And I'm like, yeah, that's the normal diet device.

Brian:

It is terrible.

Brian:

And you're, you will be miserable if you fall it.

Brian:

I'm saying there's a whole different new diet out there of embracing

Brian:

animal foods and just ancestral foods.

Brian:

And Whole Foods, and it's delicious and amazing, and you're gonna love it.

Brian:

You just have to get through.

Brian:

You're

Kate:

gonna feel better and you're gonna amazing.

Kate:

You're all thriving.

Kate:

You're gonna love having that vitality,

Brian:

but you gotta get through that uncomfortable part.

Brian:

And that's the biggest thing to, to try to get people to do.

Brian:

And some people won't do it.

Brian:

If

Kate:

we contextualize this in the what it is to be human.

Kate:

And that's come up so much in, in this podcast.

Kate:

What do you think it is about being human?

Kate:

That we want to stray away from discomfort.

Kate:

That we want to shy away from it.

Kate:

That we, we don't want to go through it.

Kate:

Or do you think that's a part of being a modern human?

Kate:

That we don't have that exposure to?

Kate:

Uncomfortable, right.

Kate:

We live in temperature controlled environments and we, you know,

Kate:

it's seasonally controlled and we have these cushy chairs and

Kate:

all of these different things.

Kate:

We don't do a lot of manual labor pointing at the farm because I

Kate:

stacked three cords of wood yesterday.

Kate:

We don't have to do these things that are.

Kate:

Uncomfortable.

Kate:

Do you think it's something about being human or just a modern

Brian:

human?

Brian:

Hmm.

Brian:

I think it's, it's half and half.

Brian:

So modern norms, I made a diagram years ago and it was, it started

Brian:

with, it was like a flow chart and it started, I called it modern norms.

Brian:

And it flowed from that within eight levels to every single disease and

Brian:

obesity problem we have as a society.

Brian:

And it all stems from modern norms, which is basically eating bad food, convenience

Brian:

foods, this like taking shortcuts, like our modern lifestyle, right?

Brian:

Everything about it is working against us.

Brian:

So let's say it's half of that, it's how our modern society is set up is, but the

Brian:

other half is the human nature is to take the path of a path of least resistance.

Brian:

So I think humans are hardwired to do that.

Brian:

And I, I visited Africa actually with Anthony Gustin and Dr.

Brian:

Paul Saldino.

Brian:

They kind of got sick from eating berries with the Hudson and they left

Brian:

early . But I, I was there and, uh, we crossed paths and then I went on for 17

Brian:

more days and I, and I learned a lot.

Brian:

And these hunter gatherers, they, they're kinda like us.

Brian:

They're not, they don't, don't want to do work, right?

Brian:

It's not like they want to do hard work.

Brian:

And a lot of their life was really chill.

Brian:

Like I actually said it, it just seemed like they were on vacation.

Brian:

It's like, what is their life?

Brian:

It's like, well, they're on a permanent vacation, they're hanging out,

Brian:

they're posting up with the homies by the fire, they're playing music

Brian:

and they're singing and talking.

Brian:

And then they'd like go run out and, and hunt for, you know, a couple

Brian:

hours, maybe sometimes it was three hours, sometimes it was eight hours.

Brian:

And then they'd come home and chill.

Brian:

And like, so humans don't, you know, it's not like they were trying to

Brian:

do work, but they actually, I think throughout history we found ways.

Brian:

Where we could get a lot done and not have a lot of effort, and it was a lot

Brian:

of socializing and hanging out and fun.

Brian:

Amazing happiness and I don't know the study, have you heard of these

Brian:

studies of they looked at modern hunter gatherers and they actually

Brian:

only worked like 20 to 30 hours a week.

Brian:

Like they, they actually collected food, all the food

Brian:

they needed in 20 to 30 hours.

Brian:

And so yeah, I think I, I think it's probably way easier back then.

Brian:

Cause another thing I learned.

Brian:

Is how bad, uh, modern hunter gardeners have it because they have no land.

Brian:

Cuz the government has pushed them off their land.

Brian:

They pushed all the animals onto the game reserves and these, these are

Brian:

all, you know, there to make money.

Brian:

They, they make all that.

Brian:

It's, again, it's always a story of the government pushing people

Brian:

off their land to make money.

Brian:

So they make tons of money on the game.

Brian:

Reserves and Uganda, they make tons of money off of the mountain gorillas.

Brian:

And these poor, the Batwa, these are the pygmies, they're pushed outta the forest.

Brian:

So they spent their whole existence living in the.

Brian:

Trapping animals and gathering food.

Brian:

And you know, we, we interviewed this lady, this lady was

Brian:

over a hundred years old.

Brian:

And so for one, they're living in squalor.

Brian:

They have no land, they have no resources, they have no skills, and

Brian:

they're living on the edge of this forest where the government makes like $600

Brian:

per tourist to go on a gorilla tour.

Brian:

And so it's really bad over there.

Brian:

And people may have heard of Justin Ren.

Brian:

He's been on Joe Rogan's.

Brian:

For years talking about making, uh, uh, digging wells and helping the

Brian:

pys because they've been kicked off their land and they have nothing.

Brian:

And so back to the hus, they're again kicked off their land government

Brian:

making money, the whole story.

Brian:

And they don't have the big animals.

Brian:

They used to have.

Brian:

They don't have the land that they used to have so that they

Brian:

could acquire food easily.

Brian:

So I guess one thing I'm saying is I think it used to be very easy to acquire food.

Brian:

I think we're very good at it.

Brian:

All the technologies we invented were around acquiring

Brian:

food and we were good at it.

Brian:

And Dr.

Brian:

Bill Schindler has a great quote in the film that we've already

Brian:

edited about that, that we were good at it and we were successful.

Brian:

And we didn't get here by scraping by.

Brian:

We got here by thriving you.

Brian:

You don't think about having sex or having babies if you're about to die.

Brian:

No.

Brian:

That's the last thing you think about.

Brian:

You're just trying to survive.

Brian:

But no, we thrived and we got where we are today because of that.

Brian:

And.

Brian:

So we used to be good at getting food and we used to have a

Brian:

lot more abundant animals.

Brian:

And now these hunter gatherers are still chill, relaxed, doing

Brian:

great, healthier than Americans.

Brian:

And they, even with the bad land they're on and very few animals

Brian:

and they don't have the large animals that we used to have.

Brian:

You

Kate:

mentioned something in there that I, I really wanna tease out as I

Kate:

was thinking about this interview, I was thinking about your Sapien Center

Kate:

in Austin and I was thinking about community as a nutrient, that community

Kate:

is a big part of what makes us human.

Kate:

And in talking about your time with the haa, you mentioned

Kate:

something really important.

Kate:

They actually don't work.

Kate:

Uh, A 40 hour work week, or a 60 hour work week, or whatever it is

Kate:

that we think of as a work week.

Kate:

And they spend, you know, this time hunting and getting food, and

Kate:

gathering food and preparing food.

Kate:

But the rest of it is spent in community and in enjoyment.

Kate:

And I think that that is as much a part of what it means to be human, to form

Kate:

these communities, this case, maybe these decentralized communities that we're

Kate:

talking about throughout this podcast.

Kate:

And to be in that space together, laughing around a fire.

Kate:

. Brian: It's, it's one of

Kate:

I think it's the food, it's some, it's movement, it's some sort of like outdoors,

Kate:

which you can count vitamin D and sunshine and time and nature and community.

Kate:

And, and in community you could, you could capture, you know,

Kate:

stress-free living and all that stuff.

Kate:

So this is the four pillars of being human.

Kate:

I think that these.

Kate:

You missed sleep.

Kate:

I wrote these down.

Kate:

I wrote these down.

Kate:

I wrote your five pillars down.

Kate:

Yeah, yeah.

Kate:

, Brian: you're right, you're right.

Kate:

Sleep is one of 'em.

Kate:

Absolutely.

Kate:

Sleep is the fifth one.

Kate:

And sleep is so huge.

Kate:

So huge.

Kate:

It's actually the one thing that I, uh, sacrificed the least.

Kate:

I mean, I did eat some weird foods over Thanksgiving weekend cuz I was traveling

Kate:

and I, yeah, and I mean, I mean I did have more allergies and I didn't feel

Kate:

great , but I didn't sacrifice sleep.

Kate:

I never sacrificed sleep.

Kate:

Huge, huge.

Kate:

But these five pillars of being human, they're also the five

Kate:

things that you can't hack.

Kate:

You can't cheat nature in these things.

Kate:

And I, I want someone to prove me wrong because there's a lot of

Kate:

ways we've hacked nature recently.

Kate:

We have airplanes, , and we, you know, we can fly throughout the world and we have.

Kate:

So many cool things and iPhones and amazing gadgets, but you can't hack

Kate:

nature in these five things yet.

Kate:

So many people try and I think they, they always fail and it's like a lot

Kate:

of our problems are stem from this and yeah, and, and like, I don't think there

Kate:

will ever be a pill that you could take.

Kate:

So you sleep four hours, but it's like you got eight hours of

Kate:

sleep cause you took the pill.

Kate:

No, I don't think that is possible.

Kate:

Prove me wrong.

Kate:

I just absolutely do not think that's possible.

Kate:

And I think one of the interesting things is, so many times

Kate:

when we talk about hacking them, we're actually just talking about getting

Kate:

back to the ancestral space of them.

Kate:

Like when we're talking about hacking sleep, we're talking about

Kate:

viewing morning sunrise and getting, getting full light in your eyes.

Kate:

Or we're talking about sleeping in a very, very dark room.

Kate:

Or

Brian:

not up yet.

Brian:

Blue light at night.

Brian:

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Brian:

Yeah.

Brian:

Well that's a solution.

Brian:

So, okay, there's two ways of saying hacking.

Brian:

So I'm saying what you can't hack is a workaround that, a pill that

Brian:

will just get you that sleep.

Brian:

You can quote hack, well I call it, okay, I hate the term biohacking.

Brian:

I call it ancestral hacking.

Brian:

Right.

Brian:

So ancestral hacking is exactly what you're saying.

Brian:

It's using ancestral methods to get to have a better way of doing things.

Brian:

Right.

Brian:

It's, it's looking to the path.

Brian:

So it's like, what are those doing?

Brian:

What are, it's just mimicking how we used to live.

Brian:

So that's why they work.

Brian:

But like for exercise, you can't, there's never gonna be a

Brian:

machine that exercises for you.

Brian:

The whole thing is you have to do the exercise, , it doesn't make any sense.

Brian:

You can't do the weight lifting for you.

Brian:

Right?

Brian:

So, so that's, and I think that's with food.

Brian:

You're never gonna make a synthetic meat that's better than real meat.

Brian:

Real meat is a miracle.

Brian:

, right.

Brian:

It, it, it's like animals that co-evolved on these grasses for millions of years

Brian:

that can feed us the perfect nutrition.

Brian:

You cannot hack that.

Brian:

I don't care what you say is in it, and the macros and what else?

Brian:

I interviewed Dr.

Brian:

Stefan Von, who's amazing.

Brian:

Amazing, okay.

Brian:

He's incredible.

Brian:

So he is getting into this, the tens of thousands of secondary compounds.

Brian:

You cannot mimic that.

Brian:

There's absolutely no way, and I, I call it like alchemy.

Brian:

It's like you're basically trying to do alchemy.

Brian:

These, the powers that be, they're trying to create gold out of lead.

Brian:

It's never gonna work.

Brian:

It's impossible.

Brian:

to do.

Brian:

You can't create a food that's better than red meat that's raised on a diverse diet.

Brian:

You're never gonna get the secondary com.

Brian:

It's like physically impossible with the universe.

Brian:

It's like, how are you gonna get all these compounds in there without

Brian:

having e either the same amount of energy or more to get them there?

Brian:

Exactly.

Kate:

And that's the, that the same amount of energy or more.

Kate:

I wanna tease that out.

Kate:

I don't know if you've ever read, there's a gentleman in Kansas named Wes Jackson.

Kate:

He wrote consulting the genius of the place and becoming native to this place.

Kate:

It's kind of a Wendell Berry contemporary, and he developed

Kate:

actually a perennial cereal grain speaking of grains called Kza.

Kate:

And he has.

Kate:

This full idea of a sunshine study where you look at the

Kate:

energy inputs of, of everything.

Kate:

So if you look at the energy inputs of a CR tractor, how much did it take to mine

Kate:

the steel, or how much gas did it take for the steel lobbyists to drive around?

Kate:

And that we can go out further and further.

Kate:

And I think when we're talking about food, we can't create these secondary

Kate:

compounds in a, in an impossible burger without using more energy

Kate:

than it took to just create them in nature, in this perfect space.

Kate:

And I think it goes back to echo something that really

Kate:

struck me in this conversation.

Kate:

You can't skip a step.

Brian:

Hmm.

Brian:

Yeah.

Brian:

People tried to give the step, they try to make money.

Brian:

It's also, yes, I love Wendell Berry.

Brian:

Uh, Gabe Brown, you know, read his books.

Brian:

I love all these people.

Brian:

Uh, David Montgomery, we've read

Kate:

Dirt to Soil.

Kate:

Oh, yeah, yeah.

Kate:

He was on the pod.

Kate:

Him and Alay were on the podcast a couple of, a couple of months ago.

Brian:

Amazing.

Brian:

And so basically, a lot of their stuff can be summed up as it's,

Brian:

it's kicking the can down the road.

Brian:

It's basically a short term thinking.

Brian:

And so we think it's better, like you're saying, we can use a tractor

Brian:

and we think it's better, but what you're doing is kicking the can down

Brian:

the road, as in either well, and or not even look, understanding the

Brian:

full impact of what you're doing.

Brian:

And it, it's, it's like we would just, especially in the, when we

Brian:

first came to America, and we just would destroy the soil and move on.

Brian:

You know what I mean?

Brian:

Or, or it's just these things, these repercussions are gonna happen.

Brian:

and we don't know it yet, and we're not factoring that in the cost.

Brian:

I guess that's what the big message of these guys are saying is that,

Brian:

yeah, it seems like monocropping is good and that we're getting a good

Brian:

deal, but we're not like cosmically.

Brian:

It's impossible to do better than nature.

Brian:

So all we're doing is not seeing these repercussions for 30 years down the road.

Brian:

And, you know, we're, we're seeing 'em now.

Brian:

Now the soil is depleted, you know, it's turning to dust, all that stuff, which

Kate:

we knew.

Kate:

I mean, the dust Bowl happened and we, we knew this and I think

Kate:

that one of the failings of.

Kate:

Where we are as humans is this sort of reductionist Newtonian or Cartesian ultra

Kate:

reductive view of things That really keeps us from seeing that long-term vision.

Kate:

And I also think that we're limited by human time scale, that

Kate:

we have this idea of it things only happening in 50 to a hundred.

Kate:

Spurts without seeing the, the full picture of what it means for a thousand

Kate:

years or 5,000 years or a hundred

Brian:

thousand years.

Brian:

Well, that's another limitation back to like being human

Brian:

and, and how this all works.

Brian:

And if it's human nature, it's like there is a limit on what we can grasp.

Brian:

And I don't think humans are good at thinking our brains just aren't set

Brian:

up to think on a thousand year scale.

Brian:

So, but it, it's interesting cuz it used to work.

Brian:

We didn't need that type of thinking to survive and thrive throughout history.

Brian:

Right.

Brian:

Because we could think, I mean we, we kind of had some long-term dinging.

Brian:

I think we obviously didn't hunt every single antelope so they were dead.

Brian:

Cuz we realized, oh wait, we need more antelope, . Like we can't kill all.

Brian:

And so I think we did have some of this long-term thinking, but

Brian:

it wasn't like we had to think on thousand year scales and it worked.

Brian:

But it's like our modern society now.

Brian:

Doesn't work if we don't think on those long-term scales.

Brian:

And I think delayed gratification is a huge concept of mine that I love,

Brian:

not of mine, but it's something that I love because I think how I've done some

Brian:

things that I, that I'm proud of are because my long-term thinking, right.

Brian:

I think a lot of success is from, and, and I mean that's the

Brian:

whole point of the study, right?

Brian:

The marshmallow experiment is the kids that didn't eat the marshmallows

Brian:

had the, and that had the delayed gratification, had more success in life.

Brian:

And that's kind of, yeah.

Brian:

I think how, maybe, I don't know which side I'm on this on, on, you're, you're

Brian:

asking about human nature, you know, like, are we set up for this or not?

Brian:

And, and some people are more set up for delayed gratification and sometimes

Brian:

it's against our human nature though.

Brian:

Like I, I think, I think a lot of the problems is, and then the powers

Brian:

that be in the corporate systems prey on the lack of long-term thinking.

Brian:

They prey on the, the immediate gratification because most humans.

Brian:

Want the immediate gratification.

Brian:

So yeah, I still haven't figured out my stance on this because it's like

Brian:

all the modern society is set up around immediate gratification, and

Brian:

so obviously that's being exploited.

Brian:

And obviously that must be some sort of human shortcoming, , you know?

Kate:

Well, you know, I'm curious and, and you might know more about this than

Kate:

me, but when you look at dopamine, I think a lot of it is, is set up to serve

Kate:

some of these circuits that are hardwired from a hunter gatherer setting, right?

Kate:

Like dopamine is the space where as we pass a shrub covered in delicious,

Kate:

sugary berries in late August, and it's an unexpected reward.

Kate:

Those dopamine circuits fire so that we can remember, oh, at this time of

Kate:

year in this place, I found a food that that will help get me through winter.

Kate:

And all of a sudden we've set up society around something that was hardwired

Kate:

into our brain and the way that we think as humans, but it can be exploited.

Kate:

And I think.

Kate:

The human organism is incredible that we're capable of looking at that and

Kate:

saying, okay, this is how I'm responding and I don't want to do that anymore.

Kate:

How do I begin to shift this for myself?

Kate:

Or how do I begin to shift into more long-term thinking?

Kate:

You

Brian:

know what?

Brian:

I was just thinking, I think maybe the people listening, the P, my crowd

Brian:

here in Austin, the, the crowd that I know, the great people like Terica,

Brian:

tour , maybe these are the people that just have that delayed gratification that

Brian:

somehow we've popped out of the matrix or popped out of our human immediate

Brian:

gratification dopamine world and have been able to just think a little more long.

Brian:

And maybe that's a big difference.

Brian:

It's like that family friend that I mentioned just cannot

Brian:

have that long-term thinking.

Brian:

He cannot think I want to be around for my grandchild who was just born.

Brian:

And he wants to, he loves that little guy and they had such a good

Brian:

time seeing him this weekend, but he still is eating the Pop-Tarts.

Brian:

You know?

Brian:

It's like, but then some people have have just been, we've popped outta the matrix

Brian:

into long-term thinking, and I think that's what all the people I know have.

Brian:

They have the delayed grad.

Brian:

. That's interesting.

Kate:

Yeah.

Kate:

That's really interesting.

Kate:

And how that , I think that's a good question, and I think how much of it is

Kate:

nature and how much of it is nurtured?

Kate:

Because I think it behooves from an evolutionary standpoint for there to be

Kate:

members of a group that think long term and members of a group that think short

Kate:

term, we need both within the context, but they need to be certainly in a

Kate:

different balance than they're in now.

Kate:

But I, I think that's in Mm Is it delayed gratification?

Brian:

Maybe.

Brian:

So I like Dunbar's number, right?

Brian:

150 people is what humans are supposedly the, the limit of how many people we can

Brian:

hold in our social circles and, and, you know, actually know and interact with.

Brian:

And that's supposedly, you know, different size tribes.

Brian:

I, I mean some could have been 50, some could have been a couple

Brian:

hundred, but it kind of revolved around that for all the history.

Brian:

So I think one of the major problems.

Brian:

Maybe with society at large, if you really, really zoom out, is we're just

Brian:

not meant to live beyond 150 people.

Brian:

And so that, that, when you're saying short-term thinking, I think if we

Brian:

did live and say we'll just call it a hundred band of a hundred people,

Brian:

then maybe we could do thrive and do amazing with some short-term thinkers,

Brian:

some long-term thinkers, some you know, great hunters, some great gatherers,

Brian:

some you know, all this stuff.

Brian:

And it just works.

Brian:

And when you go beyond that and all the problems start happening

Brian:

and Egyptian pharaohs to peasants and nowadays, and I guess.

Brian:

What's, what being human is about is finding your tribe of 50 to 150

Brian:

people again, and then you can have more of that delayed gratification

Brian:

and some of that short term thinking, but it would, would work better.

Brian:

And maybe, yeah.

Brian:

That's tied into the people that I'm seeing that have success have

Brian:

created their own tribes right.

Brian:

Within society.

Brian:

And I think that's kind of my main goal.

Brian:

You'd mentioned the Sapien Center that's here in Austin.

Brian:

It's basically just a community center.

Brian:

It's like a hub.

Brian:

It's just a place for us to be and get together and make our new tribe so we can

Brian:

still have our normal society and we can still exist in it, but we kind of have

Brian:

opted out while still being in society.

Brian:

And I think it works.

Brian:

It's actually great.

Brian:

I mean, I don't go out to eat.

Brian:

It's, you know what I mean?

Brian:

I'm, I'm living here.

Brian:

I've lived near downtown Austin.

Brian:

I'm in the thick of things, but I just don't go out.

Brian:

People are like, where do you go out to eat?

Brian:

I'm like, I don't know.

Brian:

I don't go out to eat . I just make my own food.

Brian:

Like I don't need.

Brian:

I, I have no interest in going out to eat.

Brian:

And this is another little side point I try to explain to people.

Brian:

You can't use willpower to change and, and just constantly rely on this willpower

Brian:

of like, oh man, I want McDonald's so bad, but I'm not gonna do it.

Brian:

That's not gonna work.

Brian:

But what, when you change your thinking, when you don't want the McDonald's, then

Brian:

you're not using willpower, then it works.

Brian:

Right?

Brian:

There's a huge difference.

Brian:

Some, so many people try to white knuckle their way through diets and cut calories,

Brian:

and they're just like, it never works.

Brian:

That's why 98% of diets fail, whatever the statistic is, why it

Brian:

works for people, I know it's because we don't want those foods anymore.

Brian:

Going to McDonald's is not appealing anymore.

Brian:

Then you don't have to use your willpower, and then it's just great.

Brian:

It's not like I'm sitting here wishing I could go to some restaurant.

Brian:

I have no interest in going to that restaurant.

Kate:

Hmm.

Kate:

I'm, I'm still thinking about the difference between willpower

Kate:

and changing their thinking, and I think that there's so.

Kate:

It's not just about what you don't want, but it's about what you do.

Kate:

Want to go back to that idea that when you stop eating those foods or when you're,

Kate:

you know, when you're eating all these delicious animal foods and you're cooking

Kate:

all of your own meals and you feel great, I know that a lot of what drives me not

Kate:

is the change in I want to feel good.

Kate:

Mm-hmm.

Kate:

, Brian: it, it's huge.

Kate:

It's, it's a longer term thing.

Kate:

Again, the long term thing, it doesn't happen overnight.

Kate:

Excuse me.

Kate:

And I didn't, this didn't happen for me overnight.

Kate:

I remember nine years ago I was trying to do all the hacks, you

Kate:

know, I'm like, oh, I could get like a keto bread or something.

Kate:

I don't know.

Kate:

I was like, trying to just do all these different things doesn't work.

Kate:

You gotta just, it's, it is a long term.

Kate:

It's like, You have to have the positive reinforcement of, I feel better.

Kate:

You have to have the negative reinforcement of I, yeah.

Kate:

I feel bad when I do this . So there's repercussions and eventually it happens.

Kate:

And yeah, I mean, I don't think it's gonna take anyone under a year.

Kate:

I think we're talking about a year scale to do any of this stuff.

Kate:

It's like, it's not like you're gonna go from loving McDonald's

Kate:

to not having zero thoughts about going there in less than a year.

Kate:

Right.

Kate:

It's definitely gonna take time.

Kate:

It's worth it.

Kate:

I, it's also Okay, community, go back to community.

Kate:

I think a huge factor of success is having that community around you,

Kate:

because if this guy's just in Arkansas with everyone doing the same things

Kate:

around him, he's never gonna change.

Kate:

I saw like little bits of change when we were around him or when he visited

Kate:

la and then, and, and then that's what I actually chalk up a lot of my

Kate:

success to is I changed my community.

Kate:

It's like I got together with people around me that wanted to change our

Kate:

diet and lifestyle, and then it was second nature and it was supported

Kate:

by them and it was encouraged and it's completely different.

Kate:

Completely different ballgame.

Kate:

Yeah.

Kate:

I mean that's, that's why, yeah.

Kate:

Oh, actually I had another thing about community.

Kate:

I wanted to talk, talk about, it's a blue.

Kate:

I hate the blue zones cuz it's bogus and it's fake.

Kate:

And this guy, Dan Ner, wrote a stupid book and he basically was like a

Kate:

ve, you know, vegetarian type of person that went around the world.

Kate:

Oh, I don't know.

Kate:

Seven or nine.

Kate:

Nine, maybe nine places to see what he wanted to see.

Kate:

Right?

Kate:

But what he did find, Was that there was so many other factors to health

Kate:

and despite what they eat, like he, he tried to conclude that you should eat

Kate:

mostly plants from that whole thing.

Kate:

And a lot of people tried to conclude that, well, my conclusion was, my God,

Kate:

they, these people had very diverse diets and they, a lot of them were

Kate:

healthy despite other things they did because they had such great community

Kate:

and they had the strong bonds and they still worked into their old age.

Kate:

And they walked up and down the, the, you know, the mountains to, to

Kate:

like get to their food source or you know, their local market and that

Kate:

their, their diets were all different.

Kate:

And he, and actually my good friend Mary wrote it cuz a nutritionist

Kate:

and travels the world with me.

Kate:

And she took me to Africa actually.

Kate:

She helped set up the trip and she's been to a lot of these

Kate:

blue zones to debunk them.

Kate:

And basically they're, they're all like nose to tail animal food, eating places.

Kate:

Like she went to ICAR in Greece and they just, They're eating everything

Kate:

from the animal and they're have amazing sense of community and

Kate:

they even, they smoke and drink.

Kate:

But despite having, you know, moderate alcohol and tobacco consumption,

Kate:

they're doing great because they did all these other things correctly.

Kate:

And, you know, community is so important and.

Kate:

I guess the, the biggest themes I saw from the Blue Zones was the importance

Kate:

of community and stress-free and purpose and life and all that type of stuff.

Kate:

Yeah, I think, I think community is incredibly important and I love everything

Kate:

that you said, and I think that Blue Zone study, like to look at it through

Kate:

that lens that all of these people have really rich and robust communities and

Kate:

that that is conferring health as much as, as much as these wonderful animal

Kate:

food-based diets, you know that it is a constellation of things and I think.

Kate:

my husband and I talk a lot about this, that we have lost the town center,

Kate:

the church, you know, whatever it is that brings a diverse abra of people

Kate:

together to support one another.

Kate:

And it's actually one of the things I've found the most in farming in this.

Kate:

I live in a very rural community and I depend on my relationship

Kate:

with my neighbors who think and eat and are different than me.

Kate:

But we have formed this tight knit

Brian:

c.

Brian:

It's, I, I like the concept of third spaces, and this is something I'm coming

Brian:

trying to do with the Sapien Center, and this is, I just watched a video about it.

Brian:

It, it was so interesting to me that we used to have the third space.

Brian:

So the first, you know, it's a home, then it's your work and it's a third space.

Brian:

And it used to be a town center.

Brian:

It could have been a library, it could have been the town square, you know.

Brian:

Mm-hmm.

Brian:

, there was mm-hmm.

Brian:

, some of it, a lot of it was bars actually.

Brian:

Now days it's only bars.

Brian:

Our, our only third spaces are bars, and it's kind of the

Brian:

opposite of what it should be.

Brian:

It's a bunch of people, you know, short term relationships and, and people,

Brian:

whatever it, it, it's not , it's not what

Kate:

it based around,

Brian:

uh, poison.

Brian:

Yeah.

Brian:

Yes.

Brian:

It's not what, uh, the third space should be.

Brian:

So I think we need to revive third spaces and there's many ways to do it.

Brian:

And it, um, yeah, I mean, what you said, you just getting together

Brian:

with your community whether or not there is even a physical location

Brian:

or not, or you know, but also, oh, one thing with the blue zones too.

Brian:

Whole Foods was the, the, the through throughput, the vein through line

Brian:

in that it's, these people were eating mostly whole foods too.

Brian:

Right?

Brian:

It wasn't that they're, well, they were eating animal foods, but it's

Brian:

like, yes, they all had diverse diets and the common theme was Whole Foods.

Brian:

They weren't eat, it's not like he went around and they were like, oh,

Brian:

well this one eats McDonald's and this one eats like boxes of pasta

Brian:

It's like great Or gluten free bread.

Brian:

Yeah.

Kate:

There's no every bread, there's unadulterated Whole Foods.

Kate:

Yeah, exactly.

Kate:

Yeah.

Kate:

I, well, The community.

Kate:

I hadn't heard the term Third space, and I, this is, this feels really

Kate:

critical to me because I think that community is such a big part.

Kate:

And so I'm excited to see how Sapien Center evolves and just what that

Kate:

brings to the community, because I think it could really provide a

Kate:

benchmark for creating more of these third spaces in other, in other areas.

Brian:

Oh, well, we wanna expand.

Brian:

That's the whole idea is to go around the country.

Brian:

So if anyone, I, I'm taking notes on, um, you know, anyone who contacts

Brian:

me where they live, it seems to be kind of congregating around Florida,

Brian:

Nashville, Colorado, sort of these, I don't know why those areas.

Brian:

I think they're, I don't know, people were just interested in more healthy living.

Kate:

I don't know.

Kate:

Yeah.

Kate:

Well, I think it's fantastic.

Kate:

I don't wanna take up too much of your time.

Kate:

I know that we're running, running up against 11 o'clock and.

Kate:

Can I throw in one more thing?

Kate:

Yeah, yeah.

Kate:

It's like my little left of field from this conversation I just want

Kate:

you to touch on, because I love this so much satiety and it, it's a little

Kate:

bit out of what we've talked about, but I love listening to you talk about

Kate:

satiety through the work that you talk about with Ted Naman, but also from

Kate:

Stefan Van Fleet and Fred Provenza.

Kate:

And I, I think that this is an important, I just little nugget that

Kate:

I don't wanna leave on the table.

Kate:

Oh.

Brian:

I love sat tie.

Brian:

It's so important, , and I'm glad you brought it up.

Brian:

And it, it does tie in a lot of things together and I think it really

Brian:

helps people to think about this.

Brian:

It's, well, okay, why do people overeat?

Brian:

Everyone's fan sick, and no one wants to be right.

Brian:

No one wants to be fan sick, yet somehow we're here.

Brian:

If it was simple as calories and calories out, people would've

Brian:

been able to just eat fewer.

Brian:

So the question is why do people eat too many calories or the wrong calories?

Brian:

And that comes back to satiety and, and satiety is very tied

Brian:

into level of processing.

Brian:

And if you think about the satiety of a food, it's really a, the level of that

Brian:

it's been processed and the more it's been processed, the worse the, the satiety is.

Brian:

So a good example, it's like a soda or it's like mm-hmm.

Brian:

, Dorito, less satiating than a soda.

Brian:

It's not like I was like, oh, I had a soda six hours ago.

Brian:

I'm full . Like, you, you basically will probably get hungrier from it.

Brian:

Cause if you just drank a soda, your blood sugar would go up, it'd come

Brian:

back down and you'd probably be really hungry two and a half hours later.

Brian:

So Satie is everything.

Brian:

I think it's kind of, is a common theme of all good diets and it's, it's kind

Brian:

of why whole food diets are good because they're in their whole food matrix.

Brian:

Mm-hmm.

Brian:

, and especially ones that include animal foods with

Brian:

proteins and fats that keep you.

Brian:

And phytonutrients secondary and all the secondary compounds, it's, oh man.

Brian:

Yes, I did talk to Fred Vez as well, and Stephan and all this stuff, and he

Brian:

studies it in animals and I think we need to study it more in humans and,

Brian:

and how this is what keeps you full.

Brian:

There's a new, there's a protein leverage hypothesis, which me and Dr.

Brian:

Ted Naman are, are all about.

Brian:

And I read the books and you know, there's these two researchers, Robin Heimer and

Brian:

Simpson, and uh, I think they're about 80% there, but basically they're saying

Brian:

are human, all organisms actually, they extend it to all organs, eat until

Brian:

they reach a certain amount of protein.

Brian:

And if the.

Brian:

Food doesn't have enough protein in it, you're gonna still eat it until

Brian:

you get that amount of protein.

Brian:

It's a very elegant theory and I think it holds, and I like to extend

Brian:

that to nutrient like, like how that nutrient leverage hypothesis.

Brian:

And I think Fred Venza has done some good stuff to show that, that,

Brian:

you know, organisms eat until they get a certain amount of nutrients

Brian:

and protein is a nutrient, right?

Brian:

So in the film we talk about the new, we basically just talk about this.

Brian:

In simple terms around nutrient to energy and that, that's kind of what matters.

Brian:

And it's like, why are animal foods good?

Brian:

Why are whole foods good?

Brian:

Because they keep you satiated for the right amount of time, so

Brian:

you're not gonna eat too much.

Brian:

And I know it's more complicated than that.

Brian:

You can get into like the microbiome and the gut and all these other problems.

Brian:

And if you're having additives and chemicals and, and pesticides, of

Brian:

course, these are all bad, but it's like half of it is sat society and half

Brian:

of it is just not having toxic foods.

Brian:

Yeah.

Brian:

And

Kate:

I think to kind of bring it home, I think that we need to

Kate:

be satiated with life too, right?

Kate:

Like community is part of feeling sated with your life and your

Kate:

purpose in your community, right?

Kate:

Like there's, there's satiety in food and I think it's incredibly important.

Kate:

I love hearing you talk about it and just now thinking about it.

Kate:

I think there's satiety in other spaces.

Kate:

That's

Brian:

so good.

Brian:

That's so good.

Brian:

I'm gonna have to use that now because , I have been talking about this.

Brian:

I interviewed a guy, Dr.

Brian:

Tro.

Brian:

Who is an obesity medicine guy.

Brian:

He, he has, you know, he's just really good with helping people reverse their

Brian:

obesity cuz he himself is a doctor.

Brian:

And he was like, I'm 250 pounds.

Brian:

Like what is going on?

Brian:

Lost like 80 pounds, normal weight, looks great for years.

Brian:

Held it off.

Brian:

And what he saw in his clinic, big, he has a big obesity clinic.

Brian:

75% of the people had traumatic past childhood issues,

Brian:

childhood trauma, sexual abuse.

Brian:

These are the people that are coming in who are over beat, overweight and obese

Brian:

because they have a hole in their heart and they are not satiated mentally.

Brian:

And a lot of people eat because they're sad, they're depressed, they're

Brian:

bored, even they're, these are holes.

Brian:

In their life.

Brian:

Wow, that's so good.

Brian:

It, it's kind of the unifying theory of everything is that if you aren't

Brian:

satiated in these human aspects of life, right, which is community and

Brian:

proper nutrition, then you're gonna be looking for, you know, more and

Brian:

more is usually processed foods.

Brian:

Yeah.

Kate:

And in some ways process life.

Kate:

Like I would, I would argue that virtual reality, that some of these things are

Kate:

just hyper palatable, hyper processed.

Kate:

You know, mimicry of life, a video game, a Netflix series, a whatever, that you're,

Kate:

you're looking for satiety, but you're not gonna find it in the television

Kate:

or in your can of Pringles, whatever.

Kate:

It

Brian:

is so true.

Brian:

I'm so against all like the Metaverse stuff and even alcohol and drugs.

Brian:

Again, people know that that's, it's pretty well known that those are

Brian:

people you know, who are unhappy with life and looking for more.

Brian:

And what's also great is I've noticed a lot of people reach out

Brian:

to me saying that they stop drinking once they change their diet.

Brian:

It's really interesting.

Brian:

They just didn't have as, as much of an interest anymore.

Brian:

And that's what I found around Austin too.

Brian:

It's like, no, none of these people, we don't drink around here.

Brian:

The saving center's great because it's just, it's a place to go.

Brian:

It's not a bar.

Brian:

And it's not about alcohol and it's just about

Kate:

community.

Kate:

I love it.

Kate:

Well, if people wanna find out more about how to become more satiated as a human

Kate:

and what it means to be human , where can they find you and when does food lives?

Kate:

Come out

Brian:

Thursday.

Brian:

We are working on it constantly.

Brian:

I think it's actually gonna be in the summer, so we really gotta finish.

Brian:

It turned into a six part series now, so, but it's, it's gonna be really good.

Brian:

Go to the Food Lies YouTube channel.

Brian:

Watch the intro.

Brian:

It's a three and a half minute intro that we can That's awesome.

Brian:

Can made.

Brian:

Thank you.

Brian:

Yes.

Brian:

We spent a lot of time on it.

Brian:

It and it shows.

Brian:

Thank you.

Brian:

And, and Food Lies on Instagram.

Brian:

That's where I do most of my stuff.

Brian:

Just go to Food Lies on any social media platform, whether it be, you know,

Brian:

YouTube, Instagram, Twitter, Facebook.

Kate:

I'm there.

Kate:

Awesome.

Kate:

Thank you so much.

Kate:

Thank you for having this conversation.

Kate:

I really appreciate it.

Kate:

I'm so excited for everybody to hear it.

Kate:

Just grateful for your time.

Brian:

Well, thank you Kate.

Brian:

It was fun.

Kate:

Thank you so much for listening to this episode of

Kate:

The Mind, body and Soil Podcast.

Kate:

If what you found resonated with you, may I ask that you share it with

Kate:

your friends or leave us a rating and review wherever you listen to podcasts.

Kate:

This act of reciprocity helps others find mind, body, and soil.

Kate:

If you're looking for more, you can find us@groundworkcollective.com

Kate:

and at Kate underscore Kavanaugh.

Kate:

That's k a t e underscore K A V A N A U G H On Instagram.

Kate:

I would like to give a very special thank you to China and Seth Kent of the

Kate:

band, allright Allright for the clips from their beautiful song over the

Kate:

Edge from their album, the Crucible.

Kate:

You can find them at Allright allright on Instagram and

Next Episode All Episodes Previous Episode

Listen for free

Show artwork for Mind, Body, and Soil

About the Podcast

Mind, Body, and Soil
Where the health of land and the health of bodies and communities meet.
Welcome to Mind, Body, and Soil. Join me, Kate Kavanaugh, a farmer, entrepreneur, and holistic nutritionist, as I get curious about human nature, health, and consciousness as viewed through the lens of nature. At its heart, this podcast is about finding the threads of what it means to be humans woven into this earth. I'm digging into deep and raw conversations with truly impactful guests that are laying the ground work for themselves and many generations to come. We dive into topics around farming, grief, biohacking, regenerative agriculture, spirituality, nutrition, and beyond. Get curious and get ready with new episodes every Tuesday!

About your host

Profile picture for Kate Kavanaugh

Kate Kavanaugh