Becoming Edible: Aliveness, Death, and the Invisible Dimension with Dr. Andreas Weber

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Howdy.

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I'm Kate Kavanaugh, and you're listening to the Mind, body and Soil Podcast where

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we're laying the groundwork for our land, ourselves, and for generations to

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come by looking at the way every threat of life is connected to one another.

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Communities above ground mirror the communities below the soil, which

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mirror the vast community of the cosmos.

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As the saying goes, as above so below, join me as we take a curious journey

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into agriculture, biology, history, spirituality, health, and so much more.

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I can't wait to unearth all of these incredible topics alongside you.

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Hello everyone and welcome to the Mind, body and Soil Podcast.

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I am your host, Kate Kavanaugh, and I am coming to you in this intro from

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Texas Hill Country after a weekend at the What Good Shall I Do Conference.

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I am so excited to unpack more of my experiences here at the conference

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for the podcast, and to release, I hope, the, the talk that I had the

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privilege of giving this weekend.

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But I am sitting here on a Monday just really deeply inspired about

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what is possible when we find ourselves in relationship with

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everything else in the world.

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And it is with that, that I want to introduce this week's guest, uh,

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Andreas Weber, who is an incredible, um, Andreas holds a, holds his

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degrees in marine biology and cultural studies, and he collaborated with the

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theoretical biologist, Francisco Varela, uh, before his, before his death.

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And I found Andreas's work through another guest on this podcast, Brandy Stanley,

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and really had one of those moments where you feel like you find a missing

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puzzle piece in your life, something that begins to tie together everything

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else and becomes a real keystone for the way that you move forward.

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His book, biology of Wonder is amongst, uh, , my most favorite books that

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I've ever read, as well as his book Matter and Desire and Erotic Ecology.

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Andreas is an incredible thinker, and I think that he is synthesizing

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a lot of information about the way that there is this mutual sharing of

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matter and energy within ecosystems and within life, and that we can seek this

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aliveness and this meaning creating and poetic reality as he calls it,

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in every interaction that we have.

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I was truly honored to sit down with Andreas.

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It was a really special moment for me, and I think that the contents of this

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podcast may just may just change the way that you think about life as well.

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I highly recommend picking up Andreas's books and diving into his work because

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I think that it really provides a counterpoint to the data-driven

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work that I think a lot of us seek out and into a depth of feeling and

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experiencing that we cannot forsake as part of our human experience of being

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in this interconnected web of life.

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I know that I myself have been seeking out a lot more, a lot more

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in-person experiences and chances to truly find that basis for connection.

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Um, both with the landscapes that I occupy and the friendships and the relationships

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that I am building in this life.

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I think that it's really easy to get caught up in the way that we couch

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everything in economic productivity and our value as our output.

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And I've been really curious as of late, just how I can find myself

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in my relationship to even just the grass under my feet as I walk every

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day in the pastures on the farm.

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Sometimes it's walking up the hill right next to my house and just experiencing the

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subtle shifts of the season where we are.

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And everything comes on so fast that with each day there are more buds

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on the trees, there are more insects to be found, more bird song to be

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heard and to be a part of that.

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Waking up that is happening in spring and that felt aliveness that

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we can access at any given moment.

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Andreas also has a beautiful course called The Ecology of Love.

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I have linked to this as well as all of his books in the show notes, and

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I'm hopeful that his next book becoming Edible will be translated into English.

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We've also include included the translation of the poet Rka that Andreas

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and I have an opportunity to discuss.

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Before we dive into the podcast, I have a couple of housekeeping items, one of

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which is a little announcement about the Old Salt Festival that will be happening

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in Montana at the Mannox Ranch near Helm on June 23rd through the 25th.

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I will actually be there, which I am so excited about.

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I am going to have a chance to meet so many people that I haven't yet met.

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There are going to be.

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open cook fires with some incredible local beef and lamb and pork

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with some incredible chefs there.

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There's going to be live music.

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There's going to be some speakers, including people that you've heard

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on this podcast like Nicolette Naiman and Ed Roberson, Diana Rogers is gonna

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be there, as well as Deborah Mag Pie, Erling, and some other incredible guests.

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And I think that it is just going to be, like I just said, an incredible chance

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to get to connect and experience some food and some conversation and some

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aliveness, if you will, all together.

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And there's a link for that in the show notes.

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And I really hope that you're able to join me so that we can meet.

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I know I got to meet so many of you over this weekend at the

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What Good Shall I Do Conference?

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And I'm just looking forward to, to more of that in-person connection,

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more hugs, more handshakes, more eye contact, and I think this is going

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to be a wonderful place to find that.

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as we do many weeks.

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I would love to read a review from the podcast.

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Uh, these reviews are absolutely blowing me away and making me feel so honored

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to be in this reciprocal space with you.

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And as always, I like to offer that.

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If you leave me a review on the podcast, take a snapshot and send

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it to my Instagram or my email, kate groundwork collective.com.

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I'd love to send you a little piece of snail mail so that we can connect

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in this plane here in tangible ways.

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And it's without further ado that I'm going to read this review from Pan

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Lab that just, I'm really moved me for the curious heart and open mind.

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. These long form interviews and conversations with Kate never feel forced.

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They move freely from the practical and economic to the deeper

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philosophical and spiritual aspects of living through this tipping point.

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The questions are well thought out and require the guest to offer more

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of themselves than is normally given.

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Kate is an excellent interviewer and she offers a deep well of knowledge

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and insight for the curious listener.

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She is a kindred spirit for those of us that are seekers, always

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questioning the answers we receive and the beliefs we internalize.

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I was so grateful for this interview.

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It was just too kind and really touched on.

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I I really hoped to offer you a different view of the guests that

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we have on this podcast and some of the aspects of their work.

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And always, always, I want to be here for the seekers and

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the questioners in this space.

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So thank you so much Pan lad, and thank you to everybody that

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has left a rating and a review.

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It really helps others find and connect with this show

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is my pleasure to produce it.

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But, and, and I felt really in touch with this this weekend, I really want

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to be able to share the incredible stories that I feel are unfolding in

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the, in the recordings of these podcasts.

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And these reviews really help others find some of that, that social proof that.

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This podcast contains some really incredible stories because it

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has just been my honor to tell these stories over the last year.

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And they have transformed my life in ways that I never could have imagined.

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And I hope that you are experiencing even just a little bit of the same.

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Um, and I think that's it.

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There are no more housekeeping items.

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I hope to see you in Montana in June.

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If I had the chance to hug you this weekend, it was such a pleasure and I

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am really looking forward to putting this podcast with Andreas out into the

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world and hearing what y'all thought.

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If you've picked up his books, I know that I've mentioned

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them in previous interviews.

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I know it came up with our, in our interview with Katie Forrest, with Adrian

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Grier, because I was just so, so inspired by his work these past few months.

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So I'm just, I can't wait to hear what you think.

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And without further ado, here is the incredible Andreas Weber.

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Oh, it's just, it's just such a, you know, we, I was just telling you,

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it's been such a pleasure to sort of immerse myself in your brain and I'm

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excited to be in conversation and.

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As I was considering how I might open this interview because I find the beginning of

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things to always be the most difficult.

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I actually wanted to let Rka ask the first question, and you so be,

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you are so poetic yourself and you weave poetry throughout your work.

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And so I thought that this might be a fitting space, and so

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I'm gonna read a stanza and it ends in a, a bit of a question.

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And so I thought we might, we might start there, especially as I

Andreas: 00:11:40

considered this was great.

Andreas: 00:11:41

I mean, that's not a, that's not an weird place at all.

Andreas: 00:11:45

Lived with him.

Andreas: 00:11:45

And actually I just, yesterday I had a conversation with some friends

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and colleagues over email about, um, some of his poetry and some,

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and his stance towards, um, reality.

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So, very good.

Andreas: 00:11:59

It's just a continuing over from yesterday.

Andreas: 00:12:02

. You see, I already have some repackaged thoughts for you on that.

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Oh, I love that.

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I love it.

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When

Andreas: 00:12:07

yesterday I, I, I prepared yesterday.

Andreas: 00:12:09

Okay, go ahead.

Andreas: 00:12:10

I love that.

Andreas: 00:12:11

I'm curious, which, which poem?

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Yeah, so I'm in, I'm in the middle of the second gy.

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Mm-hmm.

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And he says, for our part, when we feel we evaporate, uh, we breathe

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ourselves out and away from ember to ember, we give off a fainter scent.

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True.

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Someone may tell us, you're in my blood this room, the

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spring itself is full of you.

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But why he can't hold us?

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We vanish in and around him and the beautiful ones, ah, who holds them back,

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appearance ceaselessly flares in their faces and vanishes, like do from the

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morning grass with ours, rises from us the way heat lifts from a steaming dish.

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Oh, smile going where?

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Oh, upturned look new, warm, departing, surge of the heart.

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Alas, we are the surge then does the cosmic space that

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we dissolve in taste of us.

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Hmm.

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And I found a couple of different translations of that last question.

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One being does the cosmic space that we dissolve in taste of us and the

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second being does the outer space into which we dissolve taste of us at all?

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Yeah.

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And I'll throw the German in the chat for you in case you wanna Oh yeah.

Andreas: 00:13:29

I, I was about to get up and get this book again, which

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got yesterday from my bookshelf.

Andreas: 00:13:35

But if you have it, if you have it here, I, yeah.

Andreas: 00:13:39

Okay.

Andreas: 00:13:41

So

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I won't embarrass both of us by trying to say it in German, but I put

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that last question in German in the chat.

Andreas: 00:13:52

Probably it's okay if it doesn't disrupt your, the recording.

Andreas: 00:13:58

I'll just get up and get the book.

Andreas: 00:13:59

Is that okay?

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Yeah, absolutely.

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Please.

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No, not at all.

Andreas: 00:14:02

I love that.

Andreas: 00:14:03

You know, you know what I, I really, I really lived with those

Andreas: 00:14:07

allergies for, for, for long years.

Andreas: 00:14:11

And, um, so that's probably the most, it has been the most lived

Andreas: 00:14:19

through part of Lucas's work.

Andreas: 00:14:20

And then the allergies somehow faded and I went further into

Andreas: 00:14:25

the last part of his work.

Andreas: 00:14:26

The, the sonnet.

Andreas: 00:14:28

Mm-hmm.

Andreas: 00:14:28

. And, um, I'm, I'm dwelling more there at the moment.

Andreas: 00:14:32

Just, just gimme a second.

Andreas: 00:14:34

Yeah,

Kate: 00:14:34

yeah.

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Pull it up.

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We have all the space in the world.

Andreas: 00:14:46

Look

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here we're, I have mine, which also has the German

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. Andreas: Can you see my, it's from 1988

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. Kate: 88.

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I love the year I

Andreas: 00:14:58

was born.

Andreas: 00:14:59

That's one . Well that's, that's not by chance obviously.

Andreas: 00:15:04

number.

Andreas: 00:15:05

It's number two.

Andreas: 00:15:06

Right?

Andreas: 00:15:06

Number two.

Andreas: 00:15:08

I really, I really, um, find that and, um, Okay, so where, where

Andreas: 00:15:18

in number two is they're long.

Andreas: 00:15:20

It's relatively like

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it is.

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So it's the third.

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It's sort of the third part from the beginning.

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Okay.

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For our part,

Andreas: 00:15:32

it starts

Andreas: 00:15:40

Okay.

Andreas: 00:15:40

Yes.

Andreas: 00:15:43

Okay.

Andreas: 00:15:44

Yeah.

Andreas: 00:15:44

Well, absolutely . That would be my totally, yes.

Andreas: 00:15:50

Totally.

Andreas: 00:15:51

Only that, that the, the thing which, which, which somehow is not, um,

Andreas: 00:16:00

um, space compatible whole, whole total, whole compatible is our personal ego.

Andreas: 00:16:09

Which, which, which will dissolve and needs to dissolve.

Andreas: 00:16:14

But that doesn't mean that our experience will dissolve and our

Andreas: 00:16:19

being part of luminous, part of the luminous ground will dissolve.

Andreas: 00:16:24

And I think he's talking about this, you know, he, he is such a profound mystic

Andreas: 00:16:32

and what he's doing in his, in his late works is to, to describe this, um,

Andreas: 00:16:41

this realization that, um, through the.

Andreas: 00:16:46

The individual process of expression, of creation, of, of being poetic.

Andreas: 00:16:54

The, the whole somehow realizes itself.

Andreas: 00:16:57

And then again, all this is, um, dissolved in the whole, which is

Andreas: 00:17:05

somehow the greatest achievement.

Andreas: 00:17:09

This dissolution.

Andreas: 00:17:10

And I could quote you another, more, more other poems, and, and

Andreas: 00:17:15

oh my, to, to, to, um, to show you that, that he's really after this.

Andreas: 00:17:22

And I, he wasn't understood at all.

Andreas: 00:17:24

Looking back, he's not really one of the most celebrated poets in

Andreas: 00:17:30

German, uh, culture at the moment.

Andreas: 00:17:33

He is somehow under the suspicion of being, being a bit too romantic

Andreas: 00:17:37

and not, not modern enough.

Andreas: 00:17:40

And, um, so you, maybe this has, this is changing a little bit,

Andreas: 00:17:45

but, um, um, but he, he was so, he was somehow misunderstood.

Andreas: 00:17:51

It wasn't seen that he was actually really, really doing a

Andreas: 00:17:54

profound spiritual work there.

Andreas: 00:17:56

Who did see this was Joanna Macy, who, who, who, um, translated worker.

Andreas: 00:18:01

And that's, I think it's the best English language translation.

Andreas: 00:18:05

It's, it's not, she didn't do the rhymes, which is a bit

Andreas: 00:18:09

difficult sometimes, but she.

Andreas: 00:18:11

It's also, it leads you to, to weird constructions.

Andreas: 00:18:14

If you want to let it rhymes all the time, wear it rhymes in the original language.

Andreas: 00:18:19

So that's I, my, my preferred English language translation of work.

Andreas: 00:18:23

And of course, as she's a Buddhist and she's, she's concerned with, um, life

Andreas: 00:18:28

and ecology and, and the whole, um, he's, he's absolutely meaningful for her.

Andreas: 00:18:34

Yeah.

Andreas: 00:18:38

Great.

Andreas: 00:18:38

Start this thought.

Andreas: 00:18:41

. Kate: Good.

Andreas: 00:18:43

This thought occurred to me as you put forth in our, in our email back and

Andreas: 00:18:48

forth, the idea of becoming edible.

Andreas: 00:18:52

And I think that your work is so fantastic at describing in so many ways

Andreas: 00:19:00

this constant transformation of matter that is, that is underlying all of

Andreas: 00:19:07

life at every given moment that we are experiencing these inter penetrations

Andreas: 00:19:13

of matter turning into us and turning into us, turning into other, and

Andreas: 00:19:20

dissolving into that, into that space.

Andreas: 00:19:23

And I wanted to open there on that idea of this, of this constant

Andreas: 00:19:31

and eternal transformation that is always, always happening.

Andreas: 00:19:38

Yeah.

Andreas: 00:19:40

Yeah, well, you said it very well and um, thank you for putting it that

Andreas: 00:19:45

well, if, if you ask me, give me, give a little concise, um, statement

Andreas: 00:19:51

about, about being edible, I wouldn't have been able to put it that Well,

Andreas: 00:19:56

so, but I can elaborate on that.

Andreas: 00:19:58

So, so, you know, it, it, it's, it totally makes sense to have started with real

Andreas: 00:20:02

care, um, because he, what he was saying was, he was talking play just about this,

Andreas: 00:20:07

you know, he was just, he was talking about life as constant dissolution into,

Andreas: 00:20:13

into the all encompassing life and, and actually the, the process of creativity

Andreas: 00:20:19

itself as being this dissolution, and again, meaning that if that happens

Andreas: 00:20:26

like this, it also means that dissolving we find ourselves that that was, that

Andreas: 00:20:32

was the, that's the the statement you, or the question you put into the chat.

Andreas: 00:20:37

Does the, does the whole all encompassing space taste of us, and yes, it does,

Andreas: 00:20:44

because this space is, it is the, the inner core of life actually.

Andreas: 00:20:49

It is the living center and the living expansion and as our inner core is

Andreas: 00:20:55

this, so Absolutely, of course it does.

Andreas: 00:20:57

And people who pertaining to different.

Andreas: 00:21:03

Spiritual or reg religious schools know about mystical experiences.

Andreas: 00:21:08

They will all tell you the same.

Andreas: 00:21:11

That by being able to step out of this limitation of the thinking ego,

Andreas: 00:21:17

they, what they discover is home is themselves in completeness, in this all

Andreas: 00:21:28

encompassing ocean of reality and not get back to getting, to being edible to

Andreas: 00:21:35

make it a little bit more, um, concrete.

Andreas: 00:21:38

So, so what I, what I, what I was, what I'm talking about when I use this term,

Andreas: 00:21:45

which also will be the title of my next book, um, in, in German Esparza and

Andreas: 00:21:50

hopefully then also in English at, at some point, is actually, um, that the,

Andreas: 00:21:56

the fact that the living reality of the biosphere is just repeating this process

Andreas: 00:22:06

of becoming aware that we are the whole reappearing in different individualities.

Andreas: 00:22:17

I, I can say it like this now as I have realized that actually what I've

Andreas: 00:22:21

been coming to from, from philosophy of Biology or from rethinking Biology

Andreas: 00:22:29

and from the training with my.

Andreas: 00:22:31

Teacher, Francisco Varela, um, about, um, living organisms as the desire

Andreas: 00:22:38

to bring forth themselves as living centers is actually nothing else.

Andreas: 00:22:44

It's nothing else.

Andreas: 00:22:46

Then the realization that there is only one hole with all these little swirls

Andreas: 00:22:54

and eddies, um, which then again, dissolve into the hole, which means

Andreas: 00:23:00

that actually in these eddies it is the hole itself, which realizes itself.

Andreas: 00:23:05

And, um, so, so every individual in a way is a manifestation

Andreas: 00:23:09

of that and can go there.

Andreas: 00:23:11

But the, the fascinating thing is that if you look at the, the empirical

Andreas: 00:23:16

side of that, so on a, on a level below any form of experiential

Andreas: 00:23:24

realization, it still holds.

Andreas: 00:23:27

And that is fascinating.

Andreas: 00:23:28

And, and it's interesting that that science who, which knows this cause

Andreas: 00:23:35

what I use for this argument are, are bits of empirical science, of

Andreas: 00:23:40

biology and of physics and chemistry and biochemistry and all these things.

Andreas: 00:23:45

So it's nothing esoteric at all.

Andreas: 00:23:48

It's not, no, not woo at all.

Andreas: 00:23:50

But, but it's interesting that science or the scientists don't, are not

Andreas: 00:23:55

really in this fact, So it's because it's somehow not on the agenda.

Andreas: 00:23:59

And the agenda is much more about struggle for life between individuals.

Andreas: 00:24:04

Um, which, which as we have seen are only transitory states in,

Andreas: 00:24:10

in the dance of different phases of this encompassing whole.

Andreas: 00:24:15

So it's, it's our culture who is not interested in this.

Andreas: 00:24:18

Um, and with, with a lot of bad consequences because it's not

Andreas: 00:24:22

interested in, let's say, in, in, in, in the aliveness, which

Andreas: 00:24:27

is manifest in our reality.

Andreas: 00:24:29

And so we are destroying it.

Andreas: 00:24:31

But that's, that's another thought we might be talking about.

Andreas: 00:24:35

And so it's actually not, it's not not even something particularly special.

Andreas: 00:24:40

And when I'm talking of being edible as the fundamental feature of, uh,

Andreas: 00:24:47

living beings, then I always, you, if you have looked at some material

Andreas: 00:24:55

in the internet, you, you know this cuz I always, I always go there.

Andreas: 00:24:59

I always go, come, come to breathing and eating.

Andreas: 00:25:03

So it's actually very simple because what we do is when we eat, so we eat other

Andreas: 00:25:09

beings who are edible, like, like us.

Andreas: 00:25:11

So I, I had, as somebody who's spending months of his life every year in Italy, I

Andreas: 00:25:18

had some pasta for, and um, . And so, so this, the, the grain in this is made from,

Andreas: 00:25:28

mainly from carbon, carbon carbohydrates.

Andreas: 00:25:31

And those become my body.

Andreas: 00:25:34

And you, you see this, you see this in the, if you look at the

Andreas: 00:25:38

chemical reaction, you can see this.

Andreas: 00:25:40

And you, you have been taught this in school, I bet in, in whatever mid midterm

Andreas: 00:25:46

biology or whatever it's called, like in, in seventh grade or eighth grade.

Andreas: 00:25:50

You've learned this.

Andreas: 00:25:52

And, and then still, we are not pointed to the fact that that through

Andreas: 00:25:57

this transformation of the bodies of others into our own bodies, we are

Andreas: 00:26:01

actually in a continuum of bodies being connected, like linked in a

Andreas: 00:26:05

chain or, or a, or a string of pearls.

Andreas: 00:26:09

And then we give our body away by breathing out.

Andreas: 00:26:12

So that's the other, that's the next, the other, um, movement is that in the

Andreas: 00:26:17

same central chemical reaction, circular reaction in every cell, um, we shed

Andreas: 00:26:26

carbon and we breathe it out as co2 as we know, everybody breathe this out.

Andreas: 00:26:32

Co2.

Andreas: 00:26:32

So that's our body.

Andreas: 00:26:34

So we are giving away our body and where does, does this body go?

Andreas: 00:26:37

And I mean, now it becomes really, really interesting.

Andreas: 00:26:40

This body is being eaten by the plant and it, it is made their body so that

Andreas: 00:26:44

the carbon, which I breathe out right now, In this moment will go when I open

Andreas: 00:26:50

the window, actually the windows are a bit leaky because it's an old flat.

Andreas: 00:26:54

So actually it goes outside and it goes into the me too, into the

Andreas: 00:26:59

Good for you.

Andreas: 00:27:00

So you can, you can, you can share your body directly with

Andreas: 00:27:03

the plant beings outside.

Andreas: 00:27:04

Mm-hmm.

Andreas: 00:27:05

, you know, and, um, I think this is, it's such a mystical insight and it's,

Andreas: 00:27:12

it's, you know, it's, no, no, no.

Andreas: 00:27:15

Not a single scientist would contradict you because it's,

Andreas: 00:27:19

this is just what is happening.

Andreas: 00:27:20

You could radioactively label it and it's just, but it's incredible.

Andreas: 00:27:24

So obviously my identity is not the identity of my body.

Andreas: 00:27:28

Cause my body is completely fluid.

Andreas: 00:27:32

It's changing all over.

Andreas: 00:27:33

And it's actually, my body is actually the, the weed's body.

Andreas: 00:27:36

And, and then it's again the, the maple trees body.

Andreas: 00:27:44

And as we all know, as the San girls, every, every ATO in

Andreas: 00:27:48

ourselves once, just, just to make the link to the, to the space.

Andreas: 00:27:53

El was talking about every adamant ourselves was once in the, in the

Andreas: 00:27:56

center of a star, of an exploding star.

Andreas: 00:28:00

You know?

Andreas: 00:28:00

So we actually, all the matter in the universe is, is is somehow of the same

Andreas: 00:28:06

source and going back to the same source.

Andreas: 00:28:08

And, and we are just part in this transformation.

Andreas: 00:28:12

So we are, we are very much at home in this, and we can

Andreas: 00:28:15

only be exist through this.

Andreas: 00:28:17

Which shows you like coming from this point.

Andreas: 00:28:20

It shows you that the identity of my ego is something very dubious.

Andreas: 00:28:26

So it's not something set in stone, it's something which I realize through

Andreas: 00:28:33

togetherness with other beings, I realize through the fact that I am actually

Andreas: 00:28:40

not just a sim simple single self.

Andreas: 00:28:44

You see?

Andreas: 00:28:45

It's, yeah.

Andreas: 00:28:46

Okay.

Andreas: 00:28:46

I stop here.

Andreas: 00:28:47

I stop here.

Andreas: 00:28:47

You have more question?

Andreas: 00:28:48

Yeah.

Andreas: 00:28:51

. Kate: I, I'm a farmer and I, I raise

Andreas: 00:28:58

about intimacy within our food system and intimacy within our biology, and I think

Andreas: 00:29:06

that you explained it in a, a way that I cannot, but we have this relationship

Andreas: 00:29:11

that happens when we, when we eat, where this matter that in, I think in

Andreas: 00:29:19

many ways is borrowed from deep time.

Andreas: 00:29:21

This is how I think of this, right?

Andreas: 00:29:23

We are just, we are just borrowing this matter, but this matter that was

Andreas: 00:29:26

once other in the form of, of plants or animals, whatever that is, becomes a part

Andreas: 00:29:32

of us as it diffuses through this one cell wall thick membrane in our intestines.

Andreas: 00:29:39

And I think this blurs that boundary, which is diaphanous to

Andreas: 00:29:44

begin with, of self and other.

Andreas: 00:29:46

And then to bring in this other piece here we are home to many microorganisms.

Andreas: 00:29:55

We're home to bacteria and fungi and yeast.

Andreas: 00:29:58

Yeah.

Andreas: 00:29:59

Uh, whose genetic material very well might out number our own.

Andreas: 00:30:03

Yeah, it does.

Andreas: 00:30:03

And so, yeah.

Andreas: 00:30:06

And so that relationship of what is self and what is identity and that, that

Andreas: 00:30:15

boundary that isn't fixed of my organism as all of these different, all of this

Andreas: 00:30:21

matter recursively cycles through.

Andreas: 00:30:25

And I think to bring it back too, to, to bring in this other piece that we

Andreas: 00:30:32

have this sort of reductive view in science, while all of these things

Andreas: 00:30:37

are empirically true, that is so serving to the self of the individual

Andreas: 00:30:45

and the parts rather than the whole.

Andreas: 00:30:48

And so there's this tension between self and other, between parts and whole.

Andreas: 00:30:53

Yeah.

Andreas: 00:30:55

Yeah.

Andreas: 00:30:55

You, well, I mean, you you nailed it.

Andreas: 00:30:59

So, so it's actually the, the, the way we see the world is not, it's not

Andreas: 00:31:05

following the way the world is, but the, the way we should see the world

Andreas: 00:31:10

because the prevailing discourse.

Andreas: 00:31:13

Wants it to be, or you could even say the prevailing power structures prefer

Andreas: 00:31:18

this because they prefer the competitive view, um, in which violence is legitimate.

Andreas: 00:31:26

And, but, but we can, I mean, it's easy to, to to truly look, to really

Andreas: 00:31:32

look at at what there is and then it, this will change our view.

Andreas: 00:31:35

And as you say, we, we can even go a step, step back.

Andreas: 00:31:42

Before that, what I started to explain by, by our metabolism.

Andreas: 00:31:47

And we can look at what one biological unit is one organism.

Andreas: 00:31:52

And we see there's not no such thing as one organism.

Andreas: 00:31:54

And one organism is always many organisms.

Andreas: 00:31:57

And, and in this scale of being linked to the ecosystem, but also in on the level of

Andreas: 00:32:03

what is actually my, um, organic identity or the organic identity of a cell.

Andreas: 00:32:08

And if you go back in biological time, as you know, then we know that the

Andreas: 00:32:14

cells, the type of cell we are made from and plans and animals are made

Andreas: 00:32:19

from, are actually made from combined a combination of different cells.

Andreas: 00:32:23

So that's, that's, um, endosymbiosis, which Lynn Marus discovered, and she

Andreas: 00:32:29

had difficulties to get this through because all these , these male competitive

Andreas: 00:32:34

colleagues didn't want her to, to, to be, to have this, to find this.

Andreas: 00:32:39

But she prevails because it's, you can prove it.

Andreas: 00:32:43

You see, even when I, when I bought this book, I was in school, we

Andreas: 00:32:48

were taught her theory along other theories, and it wasn't decided.

Andreas: 00:32:52

So we, we learned several theories of how the higher self came to be, but

Andreas: 00:32:58

now it is clear this has been settled.

Andreas: 00:33:00

And so, so actually there is no such thing as one single individual, which

Andreas: 00:33:07

you can in any way detach from the rest.

Andreas: 00:33:09

This is a myth and it's, it's actually, well, it's a myth, but it's also wrong.

Andreas: 00:33:13

And if you use a wrongness in order to find your way, then you'll

Andreas: 00:33:18

hurt yourself and you hurt others.

Andreas: 00:33:20

And that's, that's what, what is happening right now.

Andreas: 00:33:23

So, so you, you, you, you have a, you'll leave a trail of destruction

Andreas: 00:33:27

if you have, if your maps are wrong and your ideas are wrong, then in

Andreas: 00:33:32

inevitably you'll destroy beings, things, others, and you destroy yourself.

Andreas: 00:33:37

I mean, it's like, like literally if you have a wrong map and the tank and you

Andreas: 00:33:43

follow the, that which is not a street and you plow through houses and forests,

Andreas: 00:33:47

et cetera, and you destroy a lot of things because you have a wrong idea

Andreas: 00:33:50

of what there is and what there is not.

Andreas: 00:33:52

That's, that's a way, a little bit like what, what, um, happens

Andreas: 00:33:56

be because of this idea of, um, competition between individuals,

Andreas: 00:34:02

which, which are somehow always about defending themselves against others.

Andreas: 00:34:06

Yeah.

Andreas: 00:34:07

I mean the, the whole thing that self is only.

Andreas: 00:34:11

Is only possible as other i'd, I'd really put it like this.

Andreas: 00:34:14

So self is other.

Andreas: 00:34:16

Yeah.

Andreas: 00:34:16

You know, you can't, you cannot even, you cannot even, doesn't make

Andreas: 00:34:19

sense at all to, to detach those.

Andreas: 00:34:22

And, and then again, other, you know, coming back to this thing, which is the

Andreas: 00:34:26

sentence which is still in the chat, this other is also self, you know, so

Andreas: 00:34:33

it's not that horrible because this other is also self and, um, yeah, it's, I, I

Andreas: 00:34:42

envy you for your beautiful profession and for, for your beautiful occupation,

Andreas: 00:34:47

which is, um, about nourishing life, which is actually what is life is about.

Andreas: 00:34:52

Life is about nourishing life and it's also painful profession

Andreas: 00:34:57

in this world, I imagine.

Andreas: 00:34:59

Very painful.

Andreas: 00:35:01

Yes.

Andreas: 00:35:01

Um, yeah.

Andreas: 00:35:02

So, so it's, you see, it is all there.

Andreas: 00:35:05

And again, no, no biologist or very few biologists would, would contradict me.

Andreas: 00:35:11

When I say, um, on, on, on the level of looking at the organism,

Andreas: 00:35:15

there, there is no nothing which is sort of rock solid self.

Andreas: 00:35:21

It's, it's always the process of, well, my, my teacher said

Andreas: 00:35:26

reciprocal specification.

Andreas: 00:35:28

It's, it is always se self is other, or he said Varela Francisco, Varela.

Andreas: 00:35:34

He used this term that organisms are meshwork of selfless self, you

Andreas: 00:35:39

know, And, um, so, so all these ideas of defending and, and fighting

Andreas: 00:35:45

and struggling, it's, it's at, at best it's a fragment of reality.

Andreas: 00:35:51

And, and, and in many cases it's just, it's just a myth

Andreas: 00:35:54

or a lie, , you could say.

Andreas: 00:35:57

And, um, there was just one thing I wanted to add, which is ah, yeah, because,

Andreas: 00:36:05

because, um, defending the self is a metaphor of immunology and of illness.

Andreas: 00:36:12

It's, it's about, um, invaders, alien invaders attacking an intact body.

Andreas: 00:36:20

And if you go to the, if you're looking at how the immune system works, then you

Andreas: 00:36:24

understand that it's not at all like this.

Andreas: 00:36:26

It doesn't work like this.

Andreas: 00:36:27

So there is nothing which is already an intact body.

Andreas: 00:36:30

So the immune system on a profound level is actually about, um, establishing a

Andreas: 00:36:36

sense of identity from moment to moment.

Andreas: 00:36:39

It's, it's not about defending anything, which is already there.

Andreas: 00:36:42

It's about realizing something very fleeting.

Andreas: 00:36:46

And, um, so, so this whole meta ology, this whole i imagery is from war

Andreas: 00:36:56

imagery, you know, there's, the enemy is, is on the other side of the border.

Andreas: 00:36:59

Yeah.

Andreas: 00:37:00

Which unfortunately, Happens, I mean, as we can see in Europe.

Andreas: 00:37:04

So these things happen, but it's, this is not, this is not how body

Andreas: 00:37:09

bodies work, so this is not how life works and how life should work.

Andreas: 00:37:13

Okay.

Andreas: 00:37:14

Yeah.

Kate: 00:37:16

Well, I wonder as, as you were speaking, if, if we've come to view

Kate: 00:37:20

life in the metaphors of competition, then it, and I think through your

Kate: 00:37:27

work, what you're establishing is the idea of collaboration and of inter

Kate: 00:37:34

beingness to go back to you Francisco Varela, to to call it reciprocity,

Kate: 00:37:39

to call it an, a reciprocal act.

Kate: 00:37:43

Mm-hmm.

Kate: 00:37:43

And, and to recognize, I guess, in it, I, and I'm not quite sure what

Kate: 00:37:49

my question is yet, but that we are constantly exerting change on one another.

Kate: 00:37:54

Mm-hmm.

Kate: 00:37:55

Um, through our environment and through this act of reciprocity

Kate: 00:37:59

and co-creation that you can't really tease one from the other.

Kate: 00:38:06

Like we are, we are creating our environment and that is

Andreas: 00:38:10

creating us.

Andreas: 00:38:10

Yeah.

Andreas: 00:38:11

That's important.

Andreas: 00:38:11

I mean, even the word environment is somehow misleading, because

Andreas: 00:38:14

then we immediately have the idea, okay, there's a, there's a back.

Andreas: 00:38:17

That's the background and I'm the foreground.

Andreas: 00:38:19

Mm-hmm.

Andreas: 00:38:19

somehow, somehow we are that which we call environment.

Andreas: 00:38:23

Also like, like when I tell you that, that when I breathe out, that's, that's

Andreas: 00:38:27

the carbon, the carbon in the air.

Andreas: 00:38:30

Is my body, which is then feeding the tree.

Andreas: 00:38:32

So actually in the moment I breathe it out, it's my

Andreas: 00:38:35

environment, but it's still me.

Andreas: 00:38:36

You know, it is also me and then it, it becomes the tree and the, but

Andreas: 00:38:40

I'll, I'll eat the fruit of the tree.

Andreas: 00:38:43

So it's still me in a way.

Andreas: 00:38:44

So it doesn't make sense at all.

Andreas: 00:38:45

Doesn't make sense at all.

Andreas: 00:38:47

But I mean, this follows an old tendency of western thinking to, to separate

Andreas: 00:38:53

into the only the sole agents and the rest of the world, which is just things.

Andreas: 00:38:58

So we need to see that this ideology of competition, um, builds on, on

Andreas: 00:39:04

something, um, older, which made it only possible, which is the idea of the

Andreas: 00:39:10

hierarchy of, um, being and, um, humans.

Andreas: 00:39:15

And we need to see, so in, in brackets, um, particularly white male,

Andreas: 00:39:20

western humans, um, are, um, very much on top, just, just below God.

Andreas: 00:39:27

And they can decide who is a thing and who is, um, equal.

Andreas: 00:39:33

And, and then all these links and all these mutual transformations are

Andreas: 00:39:40

declared non-existent and must be suppressed and must be destroyed.

Andreas: 00:39:44

And that's what we are seeing.

Andreas: 00:39:46

But it's, it's, it's, it's, it is really wrong.

Andreas: 00:39:49

And, and I mean, it, we, we, we do see competition.

Andreas: 00:39:55

So we do see, we do see in, in this reciprocal transformation,

Andreas: 00:40:00

we do see any e every form of, um, complication and struggle.

Andreas: 00:40:05

So it's not a, I'm not talking about a sort of harmonious paradise where,

Andreas: 00:40:10

where, where there's only happiness, but, but all these complications happen

Andreas: 00:40:18

on the ground of a profound identity or a profound interchangeability and seen

Andreas: 00:40:24

through this, they become something very different as this ble competition

Andreas: 00:40:29

around, um, getting hold of the biggest number of objects which are lying around.

Andreas: 00:40:36

It's, it's, I I really see this as a, as a failed metaphysics.

Andreas: 00:40:41

It's, it's, and it's a, it's a sort of, how would you say it, this in

Andreas: 00:40:46

English, it's, it's a sort of strange exception from other metaphysics.

Andreas: 00:40:50

So if you look at cultures, the, the, you rarely see like other

Andreas: 00:40:55

cultures, older cultures, indigenous cultures, eastern cultures.

Andreas: 00:40:58

You don't see a thing like western culture where there is, where there

Andreas: 00:41:01

is this clean separation between the only, the only real agent and all the

Andreas: 00:41:08

rest, which, which can be dominated.

Andreas: 00:41:11

It's, it's, it's a strange aberration.

Andreas: 00:41:13

Well, that's the word I was looking for.

Andreas: 00:41:14

It's very straight that this happened actually.

Andreas: 00:41:16

Because, because it's, it doesn't, it doesn't make.

Andreas: 00:41:20

The participants feel well, , it makes everybody, and it, it started,

Andreas: 00:41:26

it, it, and it didn't make the participants feel well for centuries.

Andreas: 00:41:30

So it's, it's because, because of, because competitions becomes the, the,

Andreas: 00:41:36

actually the main occupation of everyone.

Andreas: 00:41:38

And because this strange split goes through everyone.

Andreas: 00:41:42

So I am, as we know, that's called the, the problem of dualism or

Andreas: 00:41:46

the mind body problem or whatever, however we call it the strange split.

Andreas: 00:41:50

That on one hand I am this, this commander of the only agent.

Andreas: 00:41:55

And on the other hand, I'm obviously part of outer space as well,

Andreas: 00:41:59

because I'm made of matter and, and, and how can I reconcile this?

Andreas: 00:42:04

And so that's, that's the profound problem of Western thinking.

Andreas: 00:42:07

And if you go back to looking at philosophy of the, the lineage of

Andreas: 00:42:11

philosophy in the west, starting with Plato, you see that they try

Andreas: 00:42:15

to understand this enigma, which actually was a creation of a worldview.

Andreas: 00:42:21

So if you start to view the world as profoundly split, and it isn't so

Andreas: 00:42:28

beyond your view, it behaves as non, not split, but you insist on having this

Andreas: 00:42:35

wrong view, then st things become very enigmatic and you cannot explain them.

Andreas: 00:42:40

And, you know, and, and, and you feel lost.

Andreas: 00:42:42

You feel lost in this world because, You are the only one.

Andreas: 00:42:46

Okay.

Andreas: 00:42:46

Everything else is dead stuff.

Andreas: 00:42:48

Oh God.

Andreas: 00:42:49

So what can I do?

Andreas: 00:42:50

How can I connect?

Andreas: 00:42:51

And, and it's, it's, it's actually horrible.

Andreas: 00:42:53

It's, it's a sort of, it, it's, it's acute trauma pathology and, and, um,

Andreas: 00:42:59

which builds the, the ba the bad rock of Western culture in many respects.

Andreas: 00:43:04

So that's where we are.

Kate: 00:43:08

I think too, I wanna bring into this the word isolation that I think

Kate: 00:43:11

in that split we become isolated and to, for beings that exist in

Kate: 00:43:18

relationship to everything else, I think isolation is, is incredibly traumatic.

Kate: 00:43:24

I, in that, I'm curious what you think it would take to heal that rift.

Kate: 00:43:29

And I actually wanna pull something that you said about healing at

Kate: 00:43:33

the end of was either matter and desire or the biology of wonder.

Kate: 00:43:39

Um, you said nature does not confer salvation, but healing.

Kate: 00:43:44

Healing means to transform the oscillating dance on the razor's edge

Kate: 00:43:48

of a aliveness into the beauty of a new imagination of what life can mean.

Kate: 00:43:53

It is a process, not a state, and fuzz never to be secured.

Kate: 00:43:57

It is a dynamic balance tied to the moment and to the situation.

Kate: 00:44:01

Healing means to overcome the cleft between the individual and the

Kate: 00:44:05

other, between the individual and the whole for one short moment.

Kate: 00:44:09

You go on to say, healing does not signify finding the definite

Kate: 00:44:13

answer, but responding with another more interesting question.

Andreas: 00:44:17

Hmm.

Andreas: 00:44:19

Yeah.

Andreas: 00:44:20

It's very interesting to, I think that's, that's biology of wonder.

Andreas: 00:44:24

I, it's very interesting to, to reread myself or to, to listen to myself

Andreas: 00:44:29

at a, at a, um, well, it's still the same project, it's still my work and,

Andreas: 00:44:36

but I'm on an on somewhere, on a, on another level, let's say I'm looking

Andreas: 00:44:41

at it from a, from another perspective.

Andreas: 00:44:42

It's very interesting to see that, um, to, to see the same idea,

Andreas: 00:44:49

um, confirmed in a way in, in my more, more recent experiences.

Andreas: 00:44:54

And you see what I, what I say there, I still again come back to real care.

Andreas: 00:45:01

So that will be our guiding light, obviously, and in many,

Andreas: 00:45:06

I like that as a touchstone.

Andreas: 00:45:07

Yeah.

Andreas: 00:45:08

Yeah.

Andreas: 00:45:08

Well, it's a lovely touchstone is real Care as a touchstone.

Andreas: 00:45:12

So I, I've come back, Jim, in, in two respects.

Andreas: 00:45:15

So first, and I probably, I knew this somehow, so I was a

Andreas: 00:45:19

little bit alluding to this.

Andreas: 00:45:20

So, so he, one of his most famous sayings is he wrote in, in his letters

Andreas: 00:45:24

to a young poet that in order, instead of searching the answers, it would

Andreas: 00:45:28

be better to live the question.

Andreas: 00:45:31

And, um, so I'm somehow alluding to this and what that means, I'd say, Is to

Andreas: 00:45:39

surrender, to surrender to into being.

Andreas: 00:45:43

And in, into allowing to let down, to break, let break down your, the,

Andreas: 00:45:50

the, the borders of your momentarily self, which you are right now.

Andreas: 00:45:54

And, and just letting, allowing yourself to, to transform yourself into, into

Andreas: 00:45:59

what you are not yet into what is other and in, into what you will be.

Andreas: 00:46:04

This is the way of the biosphere and this is the way of our body.

Andreas: 00:46:08

And this is somehow also, I mean, not only somehow, it's surely also the way

Andreas: 00:46:13

of our, um, living experience only that we are so afraid of this all the time.

Andreas: 00:46:19

And, but if we live in a cosmos, which in no point ever is alien to us because

Andreas: 00:46:26

actually it is made from that which is in our inner innermost center,

Andreas: 00:46:31

then we can trustfully surrender.

Andreas: 00:46:33

At least we could try to convince ourselves, , that we could trustfully

Andreas: 00:46:38

and, and when, where this conviction, this, this work of convincing ourselves

Andreas: 00:46:43

and of gaining trust it happens is among other beings other than human

Andreas: 00:46:48

beings who, who actually, um, very trustfully do this all the time.

Andreas: 00:46:53

And I think that's, that's one of the profound healing powers of,

Andreas: 00:46:58

um, what has been called nature.

Andreas: 00:47:01

What I don't like to call nature because it sounds so much like a big, nice object.

Andreas: 00:47:06

And, um, and as, as I was talking about healing there, healing against salvation,

Andreas: 00:47:13

healing is letting yourself into this process of flourishing, blossoming

Andreas: 00:47:20

through, giving away, through, letting go through mutual transformation.

Andreas: 00:47:24

And I think when we walk into nature, into landscape, into, into the society

Andreas: 00:47:30

of being, I'm looking out of my window where, where these, these early blossoms

Andreas: 00:47:36

start to break from the buds of the trees.

Andreas: 00:47:39

It seems like right now, because it's a sunny afternoon and, uh,

Andreas: 00:47:44

it's a bit warmer, it was very cold.

Andreas: 00:47:45

So somehow they, they all feel like, okay, wow, let's go.

Andreas: 00:47:49

Like it happens before my eyes while, while I'm talking to you.

Andreas: 00:47:53

So, so this is, um, that's why so many people such this without knowing.

Andreas: 00:47:59

So then, then others talk, tell them, well, you know, this is

Andreas: 00:48:02

forest bothering because it's there, they're good molecules around.

Andreas: 00:48:05

Which, which is true.

Andreas: 00:48:07

But what is actually happening is that there is, is a profound connection

Andreas: 00:48:11

into, into the metamorphosis of being, which is profoundly healing,

Andreas: 00:48:17

but it is not rescuing yourself.

Andreas: 00:48:19

It's more, much more stressing your impermanence.

Andreas: 00:48:23

And, um, and it's nice.

Andreas: 00:48:25

I mean, we can bear it if, if we can bear it, if we go there, it's,

Andreas: 00:48:30

it works because actually we.

Andreas: 00:48:33

We get, we get teaching from all these other beings who are mentors,

Andreas: 00:48:37

and that helps tremendously.

Andreas: 00:48:39

Yeah.

Andreas: 00:48:41

I'm, I'm, I'm, I don't completely entirely remember the question,

Andreas: 00:48:44

actually, but maybe, maybe I didn't answer it or said something

Kate: 00:48:48

else.

Kate: 00:48:49

No, no.

Kate: 00:48:50

I think that oftentimes a question leads to one place.

Kate: 00:48:53

Oh, true.

Kate: 00:48:54

That is, yes.

Kate: 00:48:55

Is exactly where it's supposed to be.

Kate: 00:48:57

True.

Kate: 00:48:57

That's true.

Andreas: 00:48:59

If that makes sense.

Andreas: 00:49:00

The question which I tried to Yeah.

Andreas: 00:49:03

Yeah.

Andreas: 00:49:03

I, I, I, I had to live into it and in order to get out

Andreas: 00:49:08

with another question mm-hmm.

Andreas: 00:49:09

with another, okay.

Andreas: 00:49:11

Okay.

Andreas: 00:49:11

Yeah.

Kate: 00:49:11

So, and I think you've, you've put us in this place, you know, you mentioned

Kate: 00:49:16

surrender, and I think that this is such a beautiful place to begin, and the

Kate: 00:49:21

surrender to the idea of impermanence.

Kate: 00:49:24

And I think a lot about, uh, there's something about being on the farm that I

Kate: 00:49:29

think calls death back to place, right?

Kate: 00:49:33

Mm-hmm.

Kate: 00:49:33

, that this is something that feels like a part of, maybe not my daily

Kate: 00:49:39

experience, but this frequent experience.

Kate: 00:49:41

And, uh, my, my friend James related recently, the idea that in many

Kate: 00:49:48

ways, agriculture took what was a circle and broke it into a line.

Kate: 00:49:53

And I've been thinking a lot about what it would mean to resolder.

Kate: 00:49:59

The line into a circle again.

Kate: 00:50:01

And I think that there is this point that is death, that we have really

Kate: 00:50:07

pushed to the side as part of the transformative experience that is

Kate: 00:50:14

life and aliveness, and to come home to death and impermanence in a way to

Kate: 00:50:26

maybe, maybe begin to heal that rift.

Kate: 00:50:28

To go back to that, that first question, but certainly to

Kate: 00:50:33

feel our own aliveness and to

Kate: 00:50:40

begin that process of surrender.

Kate: 00:50:43

Mm-hmm.

Kate: 00:50:45

. Andreas: Yeah, I agree.

Kate: 00:50:46

Completely agree.

Kate: 00:50:47

So talking about or, or letting, allowing death to enter the picture.

Kate: 00:50:53

Um, I think two things are, are important.

Kate: 00:50:57

Um, I see two things as important at, at this point.

Kate: 00:51:02

And, and one thing is that death is real and death is a transition,

Kate: 00:51:11

which is a profound challenge.

Kate: 00:51:13

And I'm, I'm not talking only, I'm not only talking about death as end as the

Kate: 00:51:20

end of our individual embodied existences.

Kate: 00:51:23

I'm also talking about this, but also death as little ends in little.

Kate: 00:51:28

Smaller things and life, parts of life and projects and, and, and so, so there's,

Kate: 00:51:35

yes, death, death is everywhere and it's, it is needed, but it is a challenge.

Kate: 00:51:40

So it's important to see that it's a challenge.

Kate: 00:51:42

So it's important to see, or for me, it's important to

Kate: 00:51:45

stress that, how can I put it?

Kate: 00:51:49

That we need to see with, with this double vision, we need to see that something

Kate: 00:51:54

can be a profound challenge, but it can also be, um, an incredible rewarding

Kate: 00:52:00

transformation in, in both together.

Kate: 00:52:03

So I don't want to make any, um, publici publicizing for, um, for

Kate: 00:52:09

a, a beautiful world in which death is an illusion in, in a way it is.

Kate: 00:52:15

But as we are embodied, it is a challenge.

Kate: 00:52:19

So, so it's important, and it's important to see this because in being a challenge,

Kate: 00:52:25

and now I'm trying to hone in on, on the term surrender, which is very important

Kate: 00:52:30

to me, even right now in my work right now, it's a very important term, very

Kate: 00:52:35

important practice be because it, it gives you the opportunity to surrender

Kate: 00:52:43

and it's, this is very important.

Kate: 00:52:44

So you see, death is, in a way, what, what death does is break down your ego.

Kate: 00:52:50

And, um, it, it will break down your ego in bi big time . That's,

Kate: 00:52:55

that's when you, when, when, when the obi obituary is written.

Kate: 00:52:59

But it also breaks down your ego in small times when you, when things

Kate: 00:53:03

don't work or break up or, or, or crash or you give up, you have to give

Kate: 00:53:08

up something or you have to digest failure or go to go through grief.

Kate: 00:53:15

So this is a, an occasion to, to, to find yourself as something

Kate: 00:53:23

bigger, into something bigger.

Kate: 00:53:26

And, um, I don't say this as a cheap recipe, but it's not something which you

Kate: 00:53:30

can put down bookmark and then pull out when it is, when the time is there and

Kate: 00:53:37

said, okay, this guy said, well, actually that's, that's my occasion to surrender,

Kate: 00:53:40

so I'll do this and everything is fine.

Kate: 00:53:42

So it's, it's really like falling into the void.

Kate: 00:53:45

But in surrendering to this fall, one realizes that you are meeting yourself

Kate: 00:53:55

and you're meeting in yourself.

Kate: 00:53:57

You're meeting this luminous ground, which is the stuff this reality is

Kate: 00:54:02

made from and from which life comes.

Kate: 00:54:05

That's the ground where life grows and it can only grow if we do surrender.

Kate: 00:54:15

And, um, it, it might sound a bit mystical because it is . It's, it's, so,

Kate: 00:54:21

it's not nothing which you can do, it's nothing which you can do, um, on purpose.

Kate: 00:54:27

Like, okay, I do this and I do that and then I'll get out this.

Kate: 00:54:30

So it's something which, cuz you never know because it's a true challenge

Kate: 00:54:34

because it's truly, it means truly to say goodbye to your status, your your being

Kate: 00:54:40

in this moment and you have no idea and you need to close your eyes and fall or

Kate: 00:54:48

jump and then you will be transformed.

Kate: 00:54:51

And that's how, that's, that's actually what makes it possible

Kate: 00:54:56

to be individual and to be part of this total coherent togetherness.

Kate: 00:55:02

This is, it's, it's only works like this and it always brings you back into this

Kate: 00:55:08

bigger togetherness and it always brings forth birth from this bigger togetherness.

Kate: 00:55:16

But it's, it's always a struggle.

Kate: 00:55:18

And this is why all cultures have their, um, ways to celebrate that.

Kate: 00:55:27

And, and so there's no culture in which death is somehow just noded away.

Kate: 00:55:31

So, okay, no problem.

Kate: 00:55:33

Death.

Kate: 00:55:33

It's, it's always related to, to, to deep celebration and to mourning and to grief

Kate: 00:55:42

slash praise as, um, Martine prick tell.

Kate: 00:55:47

So, Extremely poignantly, beautifully says so it's surrendering to the grief.

Kate: 00:55:57

Coming with death is at the same time the praise of the life, which in heres

Kate: 00:56:04

in death or in that which had to die.

Kate: 00:56:07

Which needed to die.

Kate: 00:56:11

Yeah.

Kate: 00:56:12

So that's, that's what I can say to that at the moment.

Kate: 00:56:18

And it goes without saying that in, in our culture, all these

Kate: 00:56:23

things are not trained at all.

Kate: 00:56:26

So this is, this is all something which, um, doesn't happen because it,

Kate: 00:56:33

in, in our culture, death is to be avoided and it's shunned and put to

Kate: 00:56:41

the side, which leads to the fact that there's so much death in our culture.

Kate: 00:56:46

And I mean, as, as you're a farmer, you, you, you're as a farmer, as a conventional

Kate: 00:56:52

farmer, you're, you're the messenger of death because you're killing you.

Kate: 00:56:55

It's killing so much lives all the time.

Kate: 00:56:56

That's the way you're, you do agro, technocratic farming,

Kate: 00:57:01

that's like distributing death.

Kate: 00:57:04

Um, in order to, to push death away, you, you're buying into death, which

Kate: 00:57:09

is a horrible paradox of our culture.

Kate: 00:57:14

Yeah.

Kate: 00:57:15

You look like you want to.

Kate: 00:57:18

Ask one more question into what I have been saying, and while you're

Kate: 00:57:24

thinking about this, I'm going to, I'm going, I'm going to do two things.

Kate: 00:57:26

I'm going to the bathroom and I'm going to get me two cookies.

Kate: 00:57:32

brought a bag of Italian cookies and I, I actually questions make

Kate: 00:57:37

me hungry, so I I'll Perfect.

Kate: 00:57:42

That's

Kate: 00:57:42

okay.

Kate: 00:57:43

Yeah.

Kate: 00:57:43

Yeah.

Kate: 00:57:43

I'll consider

Andreas: 00:57:44

my question.

Andreas: 00:57:45

Yeah.

Andreas: 00:57:45

If it's, if it wouldn't be okay, I still had to do it.

Andreas: 00:57:53

Okay.

Andreas: 00:57:55

Do you have your cookies?

Andreas: 00:57:56

I have.

Andreas: 00:58:01

I hope it won't be too in intrusive when I, when I munch one.

Andreas: 00:58:06

Let's

Kate: 00:58:06

see.

Kate: 00:58:06

You know, I, I really appreciate the sort of idiosyncrasies that come

Kate: 00:58:11

through on these recordings of dogs and trains and various other phenomena

Kate: 00:58:17

that make their way into Yeah.

Kate: 00:58:19

Love into this.

Kate: 00:58:20

That gives it some life, I think.

Kate: 00:58:22

Very good.

Kate: 00:58:22

Yes.

Kate: 00:58:22

Doesn't need to be sterile, so eat the cookie.

Kate: 00:58:27

Um,

Kate: 00:58:31

I've had this, this thought recently and this called to it, you know, I

Kate: 00:58:35

heard you say in an interview that you have this vow to embrace the necessary

Kate: 00:58:38

deaths that we go through mm-hmm.

Kate: 00:58:41

throughout life.

Kate: 00:58:42

And I think that, Some of these could be defined as rights of

Kate: 00:58:46

passage that, that I think we've largely lost in western culture.

Kate: 00:58:50

And I think others can be described as been thinking some

Kate: 00:58:54

of about the life cycle of a star.

Kate: 00:58:56

Right?

Kate: 00:58:57

And as it begins to die, it creates this void.

Kate: 00:59:00

And as you said, you know, we have to go into that abyss that, that we have

Kate: 00:59:05

to go into that pain or that grief.

Kate: 00:59:09

And I think that in seeking to, to live forever or to have life in perpetuity in

Kate: 00:59:17

the way that much of our culture has kind of framed this, and to push away death, we

Kate: 00:59:23

have also pushed away the transformative nature of grief and of pain.

Kate: 00:59:29

And one of the things you said towards the end of matter and desire was there is no

Kate: 00:59:34

transformation that does not also hurt.

Kate: 00:59:37

Mm-hmm.

Kate: 00:59:37

, the pain is part of reality.

Kate: 00:59:39

Every experience is one of being wounded by reality, but also unavoidably

Kate: 00:59:43

one of being transformed by reality.

Kate: 00:59:47

Hmm.

Kate: 00:59:49

And I think within that, I, and I don't know quite where the question is, but we

Kate: 00:59:55

have, we have siloed death away from us.

Kate: 00:59:59

We've, we've outsourced it in our technocratic agricultural situation.

Kate: 01:00:08

And in that I think we have also.

Kate: 01:00:13

Foregone a lot of the, the grief and pain with which comes transformation.

Andreas: 01:00:20

Mm-hmm.

Andreas: 01:00:22

. Yeah.

Andreas: 01:00:22

I mean the, the problem is to forsaken transformation because when, when,

Andreas: 01:00:30

when we say like we, we did at the beginning, that self is all the time.

Andreas: 01:00:36

Other then for forsaking transformation means to kill yourself, to stop, to

Andreas: 01:00:42

stop your own individual existence.

Andreas: 01:00:43

So it's very shortsighted to, to, to plan like this.

Andreas: 01:00:48

And we can see right now as we are at the, we're standing at the fringe, um,

Andreas: 01:00:56

of this earth historical abyss, which is called climate heating or sixth

Andreas: 01:01:02

extinction or whatever you call it, which is inevitable, which will happen.

Andreas: 01:01:08

We see that this is, this is, and, and we, we know that this is due to

Andreas: 01:01:14

fossil fuels on which capitalism runs.

Andreas: 01:01:19

So, so we, we really know that this is in intimately linked to

Andreas: 01:01:24

the project of, um, shunning death.

Andreas: 01:01:27

And, and, and, and you see what this brings.

Andreas: 01:01:30

So it it, you, if, if you are a, you are part of, of a, of a living hole,

Andreas: 01:01:38

which constantly recreates itself.

Andreas: 01:01:43

As its center then to, to, to try to avoid death, which is a part of this recreation.

Andreas: 01:01:51

You know, every recreation, every creation, every creation and, and

Andreas: 01:01:58

new creation means that you need to give up something in order to have

Andreas: 01:02:03

the ground for, for a new creation.

Andreas: 01:02:04

So if you say, okay, we, we want all the good, all the goodies, all the

Andreas: 01:02:10

nice things, but we don't want this, this disturbing death, then you,

Andreas: 01:02:16

again, you ignore part of what is real.

Andreas: 01:02:19

You ignore actually the center of what is real because we, we have

Andreas: 01:02:23

seen that that death links us to the whole, and it does so much more than

Andreas: 01:02:30

ecstasy, which also can link us to the whole, but it is, the door is death.

Andreas: 01:02:36

And, and if we say, okay, this, this doesn't exist, but we have philosophers

Andreas: 01:02:41

who, who tell us, well, it, it, it exists, but it's nasty and we can somehow put

Andreas: 01:02:46

it, let, let's just try to not think about it too much and to avoid it.

Andreas: 01:02:51

And, uh, invent technologies, which for the elites at least

Andreas: 01:02:56

make it, um, far and far away.

Andreas: 01:03:00

Then you ignore what there is and, and you, you don't even ignore it.

Andreas: 01:03:04

You destroy what the, the, the working of the, the world.

Andreas: 01:03:08

And that's, that's what we've been doing.

Andreas: 01:03:10

And it's, I mean, it's, it's incredibly naive actually.

Andreas: 01:03:14

You know, the, the western culture has deemed itself always so superior

Andreas: 01:03:18

to all other cultures, irrational and so, so empirical and so, um,

Andreas: 01:03:25

unsentimental and whate whatnot, and so out blooded and well calculating and,

Andreas: 01:03:32

and then it is so incredibly naive.

Andreas: 01:03:34

It's like children who, who hide under the table and don't want

Andreas: 01:03:39

to, don't want to see reality.

Andreas: 01:03:40

It's incredibly naive and, and it doesn't work as we see now.

Andreas: 01:03:45

I mean, if you want a definition of the anthrop scene, it's that realizing that

Andreas: 01:03:51

the idea to shun death does not work.

Andreas: 01:03:54

That's actually what is happening in the anthrop scene.

Andreas: 01:03:56

And as we, we would never realize it, like, like not the majority or not

Andreas: 01:04:00

the power of people in power realizing it in a, in a, in a mature way of

Andreas: 01:04:05

saying, okay, that that was wrong.

Andreas: 01:04:06

So let's try to get it right.

Andreas: 01:04:08

We realize it by being killed by it and, and, and with, with,

Andreas: 01:04:14

with us a lot of others who, who actually don't really deserve it.

Andreas: 01:04:19

So it's a, it's a, it's a form of realizing, which you cannot really

Andreas: 01:04:23

avoid , but it's on the other hand, you see on the other hand, it's

Andreas: 01:04:28

just, again, it, it is a, it is it.

Andreas: 01:04:33

This whole, you can see this whole pro process as a huge.

Andreas: 01:04:37

Horrible breakdown, but you can also see it as a rebirth.

Andreas: 01:04:40

It's a, it's a preparation for rebirth.

Andreas: 01:04:43

So, so difficult to get there, but on, on, on some place.

Andreas: 01:04:48

Everything is totally okay.

Andreas: 01:04:51

And, and there's some level of, of, of the life, the living soul of the cosmos

Andreas: 01:04:58

or the principle of life as such, there's some level which we cannot touch at all.

Andreas: 01:05:03

We have absolutely no access, so we can be as powerful as we want.

Andreas: 01:05:07

We have no access at all.

Andreas: 01:05:08

And this is just, this is just doing what needs to be done in order to give life.

Andreas: 01:05:14

And what needs to be done right now is to, to override this wrong

Andreas: 01:05:19

way of, of misunderstanding of what, what this world is about.

Andreas: 01:05:23

And it's easy, it's easy to, very easy to override it.

Andreas: 01:05:27

And, and, and we, we, we are so powerless.

Andreas: 01:05:31

We don't, many people don't know how powerless we are.

Andreas: 01:05:35

We can see now a little bit and well, it's still, it's still sad to see

Andreas: 01:05:42

so many beautiful beings somehow not being able to continue their lifelines.

Andreas: 01:05:51

That's the faint coughing, which you hear in the background is my dog, by the way.

Andreas: 01:05:55

Just talking about dogs.

Andreas: 01:05:58

, she's, she's now elderly.

Andreas: 01:06:00

She's be 16, so she, she has some, some dry cough from time to day.

Andreas: 01:06:07

Hmm.

Andreas: 01:06:07

Maybe she wants a piece of cookie, but

Kate: 01:06:11

I think that would probably help cookies help everything.

Kate: 01:06:15

Yeah.

Kate: 01:06:16

Cool.

Kate: 01:06:19

I, I think I have a question in here, there, sometimes I wonder if we have to

Kate: 01:06:25

go through this process of grand loss to give way to whatever comes next.

Kate: 01:06:32

And I, I wanna pull in as we talk about the six mass extinction event,

Kate: 01:06:38

something that you said and, and you said, we are part of a web of meaningful

Kate: 01:06:43

inter penetrations of being that are corporeal and psychologically real.

Kate: 01:06:47

At the same time, human can only fully comprehend their own inwardness if

Kate: 01:06:52

they understand their existence as cultural beings who are existentially

Kate: 01:06:56

tied to the symbolic processes, active inside nature for humans.

Kate: 01:07:01

The biggest risk of biodiversity loss is that it would bury this understanding.

Kate: 01:07:07

Hmm.

Kate: 01:07:07

And this idea that in this, in this massive, and I think what is unfathomable

Kate: 01:07:13

loss that we are living through is,

Kate: 01:07:21

and, and I, I wonder if this resonates, is both the loss of this chance to

Kate: 01:07:25

know ourselves in the interconnected web of life and perhaps a process by

Kate: 01:07:30

which we might come back to knowing.

Kate: 01:07:34

The interconnected web of life

Andreas: 01:07:36

itself.

Andreas: 01:07:37

Mm-hmm.

Andreas: 01:07:42

Yeah.

Andreas: 01:07:42

How, how would I, how would I say the same thing today?

Andreas: 01:07:48

So, so I think what what is actually really worth of knowing and what

Andreas: 01:07:53

we actually can easily know and only for some reason, have so much

Andreas: 01:08:01

difficulties to know is how it is to be alive, how it is to be truly alive.

Andreas: 01:08:10

And we, we know this because this is, this is our core.

Andreas: 01:08:17

So, so in this moment, you know how it is to be alive, but it might

Andreas: 01:08:23

be very difficult to access it in a, in a clear way because our

Andreas: 01:08:30

culture has done so many things to, to somehow block access to this.

Andreas: 01:08:35

But when, when you were very young, you, you, you consisted only of this, you know,

Andreas: 01:08:40

that that was when you, when you, even in the womb, I mean, even before , even

Andreas: 01:08:45

when you were not one but two cells, that was, that was your knowing because that's

Andreas: 01:08:54

in the center of every living being.

Andreas: 01:08:56

And, and that's what other living beings can teach us all the time.

Andreas: 01:09:03

That's what they.

Andreas: 01:09:04

Tell us that's, that's, that's what we learned from them.

Andreas: 01:09:07

That's, that's the message.

Andreas: 01:09:09

And that's actually, that's actually all there is to, to share the, the

Andreas: 01:09:14

knowledge and the practice of being alive in, in a living reality.

Andreas: 01:09:19

So that's, it's actually what, what what we're, what we are doing is, and

Andreas: 01:09:23

you see the, the, the strange way of self-fulfilling prophecy is to, to let go

Andreas: 01:09:30

of this knowledge, to not longer access this knowledge to, to not longer want this

Andreas: 01:09:37

knowledge in, in telling ourselves, not, not you and me, not me telling you or you

Andreas: 01:09:42

telling me, but, but like in the, in the mainstream of this world actually is dead

Andreas: 01:09:48

and it's only made of things, et cetera.

Andreas: 01:09:49

So we, and, and then it becomes dead and it, it, it goes down and it needs

Andreas: 01:09:54

to pass through this invisible part of the circle in order to come back.

Andreas: 01:10:01

But the, the, the center of all knowledge and all knowledge about existence is to,

Andreas: 01:10:08

is the experience of being part of life.

Andreas: 01:10:12

And that this is, this is the only thing that counts.

Andreas: 01:10:15

I'd say this is the only interesting thing.

Andreas: 01:10:18

There's a, there's a nice, um, very famous phrase from the philosophers

Andreas: 01:10:24

Beza, who was a great mystic as well, and the Pam psyche, as you'd say today.

Andreas: 01:10:31

And he said the.

Andreas: 01:10:36

What, what did he say?

Andreas: 01:10:37

I, I might slightly misquote him, but I, I still, I still quote him.

Andreas: 01:10:41

He says, the, the, the person who lives in truth is not at,

Andreas: 01:10:45

at least interested in death.

Andreas: 01:10:48

He's only interested in life.

Andreas: 01:10:49

Mm-hmm.

Andreas: 01:10:50

And, and what I say here is a little bit the same as I said before.

Andreas: 01:10:53

So you see, life is actually, is, is is the core and the extension.

Andreas: 01:10:58

It's actually, that's actually what is, what is happening here.

Andreas: 01:11:02

And, and, and death is only, it's a passage in the self realization of

Andreas: 01:11:07

life, but it's not, it's not, it's not really, it's not really of importance.

Andreas: 01:11:12

And what is really, what is important is to follow the, the necessities of life

Andreas: 01:11:16

and the needs of life and the, the, the desires of life and the protocols of life.

Andreas: 01:11:23

This is important.

Andreas: 01:11:24

And whatever you encounter is of very minor importance as

Andreas: 01:11:28

long as you clinging to life.

Andreas: 01:11:30

And, and our culture turned this on the head.

Andreas: 01:11:33

So, so it's just, just completely disconnected this

Andreas: 01:11:38

necessity to be in service.

Andreas: 01:11:41

You can also say, be in service of life.

Andreas: 01:11:43

So the per person who lives in truth is only interested to be in service of life

Andreas: 01:11:48

because this means to live in truth.

Andreas: 01:11:50

That's, that's truth.

Andreas: 01:11:52

Be in service of life.

Andreas: 01:11:53

And as you, you, you, you quoted this passage and other than human beings

Andreas: 01:11:58

have much less difficulty to do this.

Andreas: 01:12:01

They're, they're much wiser.

Andreas: 01:12:03

That's why, why many indigenous peoples always defer to the knowledge of, other

Andreas: 01:12:10

than human beings, persons, because they know that they're much wiser.

Andreas: 01:12:13

They really know what to do.

Andreas: 01:12:15

They, they do it under all circumstances and they not try to, to, to run away.

Andreas: 01:12:21

And they, they accept that they might be killed if they keep on

Andreas: 01:12:27

going, but they nevertheless do it.

Andreas: 01:12:29

And, and, and many, in many ancient cultures, humans are, are the, the

Andreas: 01:12:35

youngest disciples of other living elders other than human living elders

Andreas: 01:12:40

because they know it is about life.

Andreas: 01:12:44

And, um, I think that's what I wanted to say, or that's what I, what I said

Andreas: 01:12:48

in, in, in a slightly different way.

Andreas: 01:12:51

So staying with these other than human mentors means that we are constantly

Andreas: 01:12:57

taught that it is about life.

Andreas: 01:13:00

So, so we don't lose it.

Andreas: 01:13:01

So we stay connected to it.

Andreas: 01:13:02

And, and I mean, and, and that's against something very simple.

Andreas: 01:13:06

So if, if you or anybody feels profoundly connected to their own aliveness, they

Andreas: 01:13:14

feel profoundly real and profoundly happy.

Andreas: 01:13:16

Nobody would ever give away this.

Andreas: 01:13:21

Ecstatic feeling of being in this center in the middle of your lifeness.

Andreas: 01:13:25

So that's actually what we, what we are searching.

Andreas: 01:13:28

So it is actually very easy.

Andreas: 01:13:29

This, this is, this is the only thing that counts.

Andreas: 01:13:32

All the rest, all the material, culture, everything else, success status.

Andreas: 01:13:38

That's very secondary.

Andreas: 01:13:41

But we, we've forgotten this , many have forgotten, but it's, it's not far away.

Andreas: 01:13:47

It's not really far away, but it, it needs some, some resolve to, to,

Andreas: 01:13:54

to go and sit with this own luminous center of a liveness, which is there,

Andreas: 01:14:03

which is, which is in your heart.

Andreas: 01:14:06

The, the Sufis call it the heart of hearts.

Andreas: 01:14:09

It's there, it's there with everyone.

Andreas: 01:14:11

And then again, it's, it's, it, it waits for you in the,

Andreas: 01:14:18

in, in outer space as well.

Andreas: 01:14:20

So it's the same stuff.

Andreas: 01:14:22

It's the same thing.

Andreas: 01:14:24

And, and that's, that's what counts.

Andreas: 01:14:27

And, um, I, I, I don't mean that, that everybody should all at all

Andreas: 01:14:31

times be concentrated only on this, that that would be asking a lot too

Andreas: 01:14:37

much because it's be, being, being on that level of awareness all the time

Andreas: 01:14:44

is, is not really compatible with.

Andreas: 01:14:50

Everyday tasks of keeping yourself alive.

Andreas: 01:14:52

I don't say this, but I say that the culture should know that it, that it, it

Andreas: 01:14:57

is, it, it should be centered around this.

Andreas: 01:15:00

So it should be actually a culture of service, of service to life and

Andreas: 01:15:05

the distribution of tasks that should follow this idea of service to life.

Andreas: 01:15:09

And again, looking back at older cultures and traditional cultures and

Andreas: 01:15:13

indigenous cultures, they are alway always cultures of service, of life.

Andreas: 01:15:17

And, and if you go back as a farmer to earlier forms of living with the land

Andreas: 01:15:24

or living as country, with country, as they say in Australia, they use

Andreas: 01:15:30

country then, then, I mean, as you know, there, there, there were always

Andreas: 01:15:35

some forms of agriculture in a way of, of co-creation, of abundance.

Andreas: 01:15:42

Um, but they were forms of co-creation of abundance in service of life.

Andreas: 01:15:48

And, and they were in, in case of doubt.

Andreas: 01:15:50

The, the, the attitude of the humans was you first, the others first.

Andreas: 01:15:56

We, we are second.

Andreas: 01:15:57

We are the younger brothers.

Andreas: 01:15:58

We need to be taught.

Andreas: 01:16:00

We need to, we need to refrain.

Andreas: 01:16:03

So, so what, what goes first is, is life and not me.

Andreas: 01:16:09

You see this is, that's, that's nothing else than what Spinoza says

Andreas: 01:16:13

in, in this famous phrase, actually.

Andreas: 01:16:16

It's nothing else.

Andreas: 01:16:17

It's just saying life first in me second and life first.

Andreas: 01:16:21

And this life includes my own spark in my own center, in my part of art.

Andreas: 01:16:29

You see what a little cookie can do.

Andreas: 01:16:33

. Kate: Well, cookie cup.

Andreas: 01:16:34

Long way.

Andreas: 01:16:38

I was thinking as you were speaking about one of my favorite

Andreas: 01:16:41

activities is to watch, uh, one of our goats outside chewing its cud.

Andreas: 01:16:47

Mm-hmm.

Andreas: 01:16:48

. And I think that there's an interesting tension for me.

Andreas: 01:16:53

I often think that aliveness and, and, and joy and that service to

Andreas: 01:16:59

life is the paray to the apogee of, of grief and, and mm-hmm.

Andreas: 01:17:06

We need these poles in some ways to, to create our, our orbit around

Andreas: 01:17:15

a aliveness and, and to touch that.

Andreas: 01:17:17

And I was thinking about how much I learn when I sit and I watch one of our goats

Andreas: 01:17:22

in the sunshine chewing its cut and just sort of dissolving into a complete state

Andreas: 01:17:31

of inter being with everything else.

Andreas: 01:17:34

At least that's how I experience the idea of an animal chewing its cut,

Andreas: 01:17:39

is that there is this dissolution of.

Andreas: 01:17:44

Of everything into that single moment.

Andreas: 01:17:47

Mm-hmm.

Andreas: 01:17:47

where it is just being that is so, that is hard for us to reach and, and easy also.

Andreas: 01:17:55

It is, it is both things.

Andreas: 01:17:57

Yeah.

Andreas: 01:17:57

Yeah, yeah.

Andreas: 01:17:58

Yeah.

Andreas: 01:17:58

It's, yeah.

Andreas: 01:17:59

I, I completely agree.

Andreas: 01:18:00

It is, it's so interesting that in a way it is, it is, it is absolutely easy.

Andreas: 01:18:06

And then going there intentionally, it can be absolutely full, can be impossible.

Andreas: 01:18:15

It can be so difficult, but then it is very easy and you can also train

Andreas: 01:18:19

it, you know, so people can train it.

Andreas: 01:18:22

I've just recently listened to a little talk, a, a very famous Buddhist

Andreas: 01:18:29

teacher of a mystic lineage, which actually happens to be the teacher of

Andreas: 01:18:34

my teacher, my own teacher, biological teacher, philosophical teacher.

Andreas: 01:18:40

Francisco Varela was also Buddhist.

Andreas: 01:18:42

So this teacher, this Buddhist guru Toku, taught a way of meditation,

Andreas: 01:18:49

which he called non-meditation.

Andreas: 01:18:52

And, um, the only thing actually was to let go of, of your, your,

Andreas: 01:18:59

the thinking, which names things, and just be in that moment.

Andreas: 01:19:03

Just be there, just be there, but without effort, and, and, and I, I, I

Andreas: 01:19:10

absolutely imagine that, you know, that.

Andreas: 01:19:16

So many other than human beings just do this all the time.

Andreas: 01:19:21

Mm-hmm.

Andreas: 01:19:22

, they do this all the time.

Andreas: 01:19:23

You know, they, they're all, they're all the time there.

Andreas: 01:19:26

So, which, which for a, for a Buddhist disciple is the highest goal, which

Andreas: 01:19:34

they try to reach for years and years.

Andreas: 01:19:39

of painful exercises and the, the, the, the goat is, is there effort?

Andreas: 01:19:47

Completely effortless.

Andreas: 01:19:48

Cause it's, he doesn't, he doesn't think about his thoughts about this food.

Andreas: 01:19:55

He just chews, munch, like, I mean, I mean, you, you see a

Andreas: 01:19:58

little bit like me and the cookie.

Andreas: 01:20:00

That's my meditative device.

Andreas: 01:20:03

. And so you see again, what, what you described this, this, the luminous

Andreas: 01:20:08

moment is again, nothing else but just being in your own aliveness, in

Andreas: 01:20:16

the experience of your own aliveness.

Andreas: 01:20:18

And, um, the, it's also beautiful that, that your goat becomes your teacher

Andreas: 01:20:24

There, you see your goat is your guru.

Andreas: 01:20:27

And, um, it's very important to, to realize teachers . And, and so your,

Andreas: 01:20:33

your goat is a very, very good teacher because he's completely non-violent.

Andreas: 01:20:38

He will, he will never.

Andreas: 01:20:40

He will never send you into any competition or whatever.

Andreas: 01:20:43

You will always be good enough for him.

Andreas: 01:20:45

So you see, he's a, he's a very good teacher.

Andreas: 01:20:47

And then at, at the other, on the other hand, he is, or she maybe

Andreas: 01:20:52

I, I, I didn't, I didn't know.

Andreas: 01:20:53

So I don't know he or she.

Andreas: 01:20:55

There

Kate: 01:20:55

are many goats.

Kate: 01:20:56

I have many teachers.

Andreas: 01:20:58

Very good.

Andreas: 01:20:58

Yes.

Andreas: 01:20:59

And, and I mean, because you see, because if a lifeness happens,

Andreas: 01:21:07

that, that is profoundly our mentor.

Andreas: 01:21:11

So life itself is our mentor.

Andreas: 01:21:13

And in, in, in, in spiritual lineages, only a teacher which is

Andreas: 01:21:19

able to transfer this, a lifeness to a disciple is a good teacher.

Andreas: 01:21:26

It's not at all about training.

Andreas: 01:21:30

It's really, really about coming into the center of a lifeness

Andreas: 01:21:35

and everything starts from there.

Andreas: 01:21:39

So for me, it's perfectly okay to have a, have a flock of goats.

Andreas: 01:21:43

A herd of goats as teacher or a mountain or, I mean, I'm, I'm, I go to this oak

Andreas: 01:21:49

tree in the forest close to my place and, um, meet my teacher because the, I mean,

Andreas: 01:21:58

the only thing the teacher can convey to you is to, to, it's interesting isn't

Andreas: 01:22:04

it, is to, to, to let you participate.

Andreas: 01:22:09

In the gift of life.

Andreas: 01:22:10

That's, that's the only true teaching.

Andreas: 01:22:14

And you know what, what happens then, and this again, is, is, is cyclical.

Andreas: 01:22:20

So if you really, if you really be, if you're given the gift of

Andreas: 01:22:26

participating in life, you'll immediately be able to transmit this gift.

Andreas: 01:22:31

You even, you'll even want nothing more than to transmit this gift.

Andreas: 01:22:36

You see, if you, if you, if you receive the luminosity of life, then

Andreas: 01:22:41

you want to give life to others.

Andreas: 01:22:44

And you probably know this because it's part of your profession.

Andreas: 01:22:47

And, um, but I mean, I think many people know this, and, um, artists know this

Andreas: 01:22:53

because they, they need to produce art when they have been touched by life.

Andreas: 01:22:57

And art is something which instills life in others.

Andreas: 01:23:01

So you see, that's, it's also simple and it's also profound.

Andreas: 01:23:07

Cosmic secret.

Andreas: 01:23:09

Obvious secret that this is the way, um, a lifeness transmits

Andreas: 01:23:16

itself by giving itself away.

Andreas: 01:23:19

And, and we, and we can, we can know the feeling.

Andreas: 01:23:22

I mean, isn't that fantastic?

Andreas: 01:23:23

So we can be so absolutely, so, so much in, in the center of the, of

Andreas: 01:23:28

this reality that we, we, we become an, the instrument of what this, the

Andreas: 01:23:33

desire of this, of this reality is.

Andreas: 01:23:37

We are actually this reality desiring to give life.

Andreas: 01:23:40

Mm-hmm.

Andreas: 01:23:41

And I mean, that's when I say, um, it should be a culture should be

Andreas: 01:23:46

about being in service to life.

Andreas: 01:23:48

That's, that's what I'm talking about then.

Andreas: 01:23:51

Mm-hmm.

Andreas: 01:23:53

Thank you

Kate: 01:23:54

for that.

Kate: 01:23:54

That was a beautiful explanation of exploring the reciprocal gift of

Kate: 01:24:02

aliveness and what it inspires in us to, to put forth and, and cycle through.

Kate: 01:24:13

I actually wanna touch on language briefly, and you, you brought this up

Kate: 01:24:19

a little bit ago in the conversation, that the way that we have come to

Kate: 01:24:25

define so much of our reality as, as dead things, it has this effect of,

Kate: 01:24:34

of severing us from our aliveness.

Kate: 01:24:37

And as I was reading all of your work, I was really struck by how often we

Kate: 01:24:45

use the terminology of other beings to describe our own inner experience.

Kate: 01:24:51

Whether we are watching a, a flower in bloom, or we are watching a

Kate: 01:24:56

lake freeze over that, that relates back to us part of our inner world.

Kate: 01:25:03

And.

Kate: 01:25:04

Speaking of your oak tree, I pulled, I pulled a, a quote from you in this that

Kate: 01:25:11

I, I wanted to sort of bring into the conversation, um, and we'll see how it

Kate: 01:25:17

lands with the transformations of you that have happened since you wrote this.

Kate: 01:25:23

We create linguistic expressions on the basis of embodied experiences, and we

Kate: 01:25:28

can find the reference point for these experiences and other beings that embody

Kate: 01:25:32

the same existential feelings, symbols, thus become the language of the psyche.

Kate: 01:25:37

In this sense, the vegetative world in front of our eyes is nothing

Kate: 01:25:40

other than our own inwardness.

Kate: 01:25:42

Nature shows this inwardness as a silent mirror expressing before us.

Kate: 01:25:46

What is unnameable?

Kate: 01:25:47

Because it is within us.

Kate: 01:25:49

In contemplating the life of a tree, a human can comprehend similar Flo

Kate: 01:25:53

forces that he knows exists within himself without having to analyze them

Kate: 01:25:57

because again, they are part of the self with which he organizes experience.

Kate: 01:26:02

The naughty oak and the sea of grass grasps by the wind are living reservoirs

Kate: 01:26:06

of understanding as when I sense my own powers of endurance or joy or melancholy.

Kate: 01:26:12

Because the plant is always growing, it illustrates not only the principle

Kate: 01:26:16

of self conservation in life, but also the intensification of self.

Kate: 01:26:20

The plant is aliveness made, physical embodied in lush leaves and buds.

Kate: 01:26:25

Impatient of bloom.

Andreas: 01:26:31

Yeah.

Andreas: 01:26:31

Yep.

Andreas: 01:26:32

The plant is lifeness made physical.

Andreas: 01:26:36

That's, that's, that's, you see, that's, um, that connects very well to what I'm,

Andreas: 01:26:43

what I've been talking about before.

Andreas: 01:26:45

See, that's, that's the interesting thing is that, and, and then I, I I go back

Andreas: 01:26:50

a little bit to, to the, to the, the earlier parts of what you were coding.

Andreas: 01:26:54

The interesting thing is that,

Andreas: 01:26:59

that the, the, let's say the, the, the, the inner dimensions or the

Andreas: 01:27:03

spiritual dimensions I've been talking about in the last part, in the recent

Andreas: 01:27:10

minutes, they, they have their, their, their physical, their, their embodied

Andreas: 01:27:16

references in the living world.

Andreas: 01:27:18

So, so it's actually the, the realm of experiences.

Andreas: 01:27:23

If you, if you open your eyes, you find it also, um, incarnated in the

Andreas: 01:27:29

living bodies, and it actually, what is going on with them is the same thing.

Andreas: 01:27:32

So, because it is the same thing.

Andreas: 01:27:34

So you see you, but, but we, we have been so much trained to, to, to separate these

Andreas: 01:27:40

things into, um, okay, this, this is only physical and that's my imagination.

Andreas: 01:27:45

Um, but, but it, they are not separate.

Andreas: 01:27:47

So, so you can, and, and I mean, when I actually, you did do this in an

Andreas: 01:27:53

admirable way because you, you found so many important thoughts in my work.

Andreas: 01:27:58

What, what I'm doing now is.

Andreas: 01:28:02

Exploring much more the, let's say the, the invisible dimension.

Andreas: 01:28:07

But the interesting thing is that what I've been been doing

Andreas: 01:28:10

before is just the same thing.

Andreas: 01:28:13

Only that I'm, I'm I, I've been exploring the, um, let's say the,

Andreas: 01:28:18

the, the expressive and embodied dimension of, of the flesh.

Andreas: 01:28:22

But it is just the same thing.

Andreas: 01:28:23

This is so interesting.

Andreas: 01:28:25

And, um, so it's truly the same thing.

Andreas: 01:28:29

So it's not only, it's not, I might be a bit, a bit more radical

Andreas: 01:28:34

now if I say, say it again.

Andreas: 01:28:36

So, so it's what, what we might see as a symbol is actually not a symbol.

Andreas: 01:28:41

It is the same thing happening.

Andreas: 01:28:43

Only that we access it on, on different levels.

Andreas: 01:28:47

And again, if you see this, if you meet this blossom, you meet this

Andreas: 01:28:50

flower or the, the first, the little, um, blue, how are they called?

Andreas: 01:28:57

Blue lilies coming out.

Andreas: 01:29:02

Um, that's, it is a manifestation of life in, in individualized form.

Andreas: 01:29:07

Like you are a manifestation of life and individualized form.

Andreas: 01:29:10

So, so you're, you're, you, you're confronted with that

Andreas: 01:29:14

in, in on the material level.

Andreas: 01:29:18

So that material level actually, although it is, it is clearly a material

Andreas: 01:29:26

physical level is also a dimension of.

Andreas: 01:29:31

Inexperience of inwardness.

Andreas: 01:29:33

So you, you cannot separate it.

Andreas: 01:29:35

It is the same thing.

Andreas: 01:29:36

So this what you see there, the blossom, the, the flower,

Andreas: 01:29:39

the, the, the blossoming trees.

Andreas: 01:29:42

This is inwardness exploding before your eyes.

Andreas: 01:29:46

So you, you see, it's, it is inwardness in which you can walk

Andreas: 01:29:51

like your own inwardness, people can bump into your own inwardness.

Andreas: 01:29:54

So it's, it's, and I mean, it, it becomes, you see, I'm, I'm, I'm approaching a sort

Andreas: 01:29:59

of rapture because, because I found this, I find this so generous of the cosmos.

Andreas: 01:30:04

You know, you, you, you cannot avoid to, to be, um, embraced by this sweet

Andreas: 01:30:10

substance you are made of yourself.

Andreas: 01:30:12

It is absolutely incredible.

Andreas: 01:30:13

And then, I mean, then finally, you, you even eat it , you eat it with,

Andreas: 01:30:17

with, with joy and with with love.

Andreas: 01:30:20

And, and I mean, did, did, did anybody ask themselves why actually we love eating?

Andreas: 01:30:28

Yeah.

Andreas: 01:30:28

Okay.

Andreas: 01:30:29

The biology teacher told you Yes, because it is necessary.

Andreas: 01:30:32

And if you love it, then it is easier done and you won't starve.

Andreas: 01:30:36

That's what I heard is the typical Western explanation.

Andreas: 01:30:40

But you, we love it because it's a profound mystical experience because it

Andreas: 01:30:45

is a, it is a profound meeting of life.

Andreas: 01:30:48

And I mean, it, it's, it's, we, we are actually, we, we, uh, eating means,

Andreas: 01:30:54

and we touched upon this already.

Andreas: 01:30:57

It means that, that we.

Andreas: 01:31:00

We experience that we exchange our body with other bodies and in exchanging our

Andreas: 01:31:10

bodies with other bodies, we confirm that both my body and this other body are part

Andreas: 01:31:20

of this one unified whole, which desires life by, by granting this exchange.

Andreas: 01:31:31

So, so what reason would be there not to be ecstatic in this

Andreas: 01:31:34

experience, , but it's, it's, it's, it's a sacred experience.

Andreas: 01:31:37

So why, why shouldn't we be ecstatic about it?

Andreas: 01:31:40

Or drinking?

Andreas: 01:31:41

If you're thirsty, it's the same thing.

Andreas: 01:31:43

It's, I mean, it's a profound pleasure.

Andreas: 01:31:47

So, so actually if we really look, we meet, we meet life everywhere and

Andreas: 01:31:52

it teaches us everywhere, always.

Andreas: 01:31:55

And it can be, it can have this, this dimension of, of rupture and profound

Andreas: 01:32:00

understanding, but it also has this dimension of, um, of very simple care

Andreas: 01:32:05

and knowing what to do next in order to keep this process of fertility

Andreas: 01:32:11

and ongoing transmutation open.

Andreas: 01:32:16

Do you see, it's also very, very simple.

Andreas: 01:32:17

You see there's a plant which needs, which needs whatever help or space or

Andreas: 01:32:24

water or, Food, then you know what to do.

Andreas: 01:32:28

So it's in a way, it's, it's, it's also, it's not only, it doesn't only

Andreas: 01:32:32

happen on this level of, let's say, mystical philosophical experience.

Andreas: 01:32:38

It also happens on this very practical level.

Andreas: 01:32:40

Okay, now I know what I have to do right now.

Andreas: 01:32:43

So it happens on the level of community, of the, in the level of relation,

Andreas: 01:32:46

which again, is an expression of the profound, the profound luminous oneness.

Andreas: 01:32:54

We, we are, we are part of, we we are here to nourish.

Andreas: 01:32:58

Yeah.

Andreas: 01:32:59

So that's, that's how I, I would describe this today probably the,

Andreas: 01:33:04

the, the passage you read, but I, I started from the, from the end.

Andreas: 01:33:06

So maybe, uh, okay, let me, let me, let me think.

Andreas: 01:33:10

I wanted to, if I wanted to, yeah, so I, I, I'd become a bit more, a bit

Andreas: 01:33:16

broader in, in my, in my idea of what, what, what is actually the profound

Andreas: 01:33:21

experience in meeting otherness.

Andreas: 01:33:25

And I'd say, and I, I think I said this already, I'd say that if we, we are unable

Andreas: 01:33:31

to understand that it is life in which we participate, then, then it, it will

Andreas: 01:33:38

vanish, it will drop through our fingers.

Andreas: 01:33:43

And, and at, you know, that's actually today, I would say the

Andreas: 01:33:47

problem is that in, in doing so, we can, we cannot be, we stop being.

Andreas: 01:33:56

We stop being fertile ourselves.

Andreas: 01:33:58

We stop, we, we, we stop being, we stop giving the gift of life.

Andreas: 01:34:03

That's the problem.

Andreas: 01:34:04

No, I, you see, I wouldn't say, okay, and then if we don't understand

Andreas: 01:34:08

it, then we'll, we'll, we'll die.

Andreas: 01:34:11

, that would be too simple.

Andreas: 01:34:12

in my, in my, in my, and, um, the, the profound problem is that we, we

Andreas: 01:34:21

stop, we, we somehow pull ourselves out of this divine circle of, of gifting

Andreas: 01:34:27

life because we have been given life.

Andreas: 01:34:30

And that's terrible.

Andreas: 01:34:31

That's really terrible.

Andreas: 01:34:33

Yes.

Andreas: 01:34:34

And that's what we are doing.

Andreas: 01:34:35

That's like what even our philosophy told, tells us.

Andreas: 01:34:38

And the, the ideology behind capitalism says that don't ever give anything.

Andreas: 01:34:43

Be, be egoistic.

Andreas: 01:34:44

And it's absolutely terrible because it is.

Andreas: 01:34:47

If you, if you wish, it is anti cosmic . And, and I mean,

Andreas: 01:34:52

it, it, this really hurts.

Andreas: 01:34:55

It's somehow blessed for me.

Andreas: 01:34:57

Maybe you what could go in this direction, but it really, really hurts.

Andreas: 01:35:00

Like, you know, it, it hurts.

Andreas: 01:35:02

Like if there's somebody who, who is truly giving soul and wants you

Andreas: 01:35:10

to take his or her gift and you, you slap him into the, in the face.

Andreas: 01:35:17

Because, because you feel so much, so superior, you see this is really hurting.

Andreas: 01:35:21

This is really, really profoundly wrong.

Andreas: 01:35:24

And it somehow, it, somehow, it goes against the, the whole grain

Andreas: 01:35:28

of, of the whole project of life.

Andreas: 01:35:32

And this is, this is why it is so terrible.

Andreas: 01:35:34

It is so profoundly terrible.

Andreas: 01:35:36

And, and our civilization is so deeply caught in this, that this,

Andreas: 01:35:42

that it can't survive, can't survive if it, it works like this because

Andreas: 01:35:47

it's so absolutely outlandish.

Andreas: 01:35:49

This attitude.

Andreas: 01:35:50

It, it cannot be allowed . It just cannot be allowed.

Kate: 01:35:58

It calls to mind for me that in a biological system of isolation,

Kate: 01:36:02

that cancer is a disease of isolation.

Kate: 01:36:04

Right?

Kate: 01:36:04

It is a mm-hmm.

Kate: 01:36:05

, it is a cell that can no longer communicate with the whole.

Kate: 01:36:08

And for us to remove ourselves from the cycle, as it were, to remove ourselves

Kate: 01:36:15

from this recursive and eternal act of reciprocity in isolation and to not give

Kate: 01:36:23

back in, in, I mean in, in the beautiful metaphor that you put in with eating.

Kate: 01:36:28

You know, this, this act of, um, one of my favorite definitions of intimacy

Kate: 01:36:34

is a union of particles, right?

Kate: 01:36:36

And so, so eating is, is coming home to self and becoming other

Kate: 01:36:40

and giving all at the same time.

Kate: 01:36:42

Yeah, yeah.

Kate: 01:36:43

In this metabolic act.

Andreas: 01:36:45

Yeah.

Andreas: 01:36:46

Yeah.

Andreas: 01:36:46

That you put it very well.

Andreas: 01:36:47

Yeah.

Andreas: 01:36:48

Yeah.

Andreas: 01:36:48

Yeah.

Andreas: 01:36:48

That's, I I like to, I like this.

Andreas: 01:36:51

Yes.

Andreas: 01:36:53

But you were going somewhere.

Kate: 01:36:54

Yeah.

Kate: 01:36:55

Good.

Kate: 01:36:56

Yeah.

Kate: 01:36:56

I was just going to, to remove ourself from that cycle and, and to really

Kate: 01:37:01

distill what you said and, and, and put emphasis on it is, it is worth than death.

Kate: 01:37:07

Death is a, a part of that cycle.

Kate: 01:37:09

But to see ourselves as being outside of or above that cycle mm-hmm.

Kate: 01:37:17

I think that the ramifications of that are something that we

Kate: 01:37:20

are, uh, we, that we are living.

Andreas: 01:37:23

Yeah.

Andreas: 01:37:26

Yeah.

Andreas: 01:37:26

It's interesting.

Andreas: 01:37:27

I mean, it's interesting to, to, to think in the direction of hierarchy of horrors.

Andreas: 01:37:34

So it's, it's not even, it's not even, this attitude means not

Andreas: 01:37:38

even to be, to be, to be a killer.

Andreas: 01:37:40

It means to be somebody who actively suppresses the idea and the, the practice

Andreas: 01:37:48

that the, the reality is giving life.

Andreas: 01:37:53

So, and giving life is actually giving a gift.

Andreas: 01:37:56

I mean, this is, I I, I always arrive at this point that somebody who,

Andreas: 01:38:01

who, who, who is, who is presented with the most precious gift in all

Andreas: 01:38:08

innocence, reacts with disdain and violence towards the one who gives this.

Andreas: 01:38:15

And he, he forsaken all possibilities of future existence.

Andreas: 01:38:20

Because he, he, with this, he steps out of reality.

Andreas: 01:38:25

And, um, so this is, that's the level which, which we are witnessing.

Andreas: 01:38:30

Um, it's, it's incredible.

Andreas: 01:38:33

I mean, it's, for me, one of the biggest enigmas actually, actually is why,

Andreas: 01:38:37

why did this thinking gain ground?

Andreas: 01:38:40

What happened?

Andreas: 01:38:41

What happened?

Andreas: 01:38:42

Because we know people that people who were living in, in more life

Andreas: 01:38:48

centered cultures, although they might live on, on materially very

Andreas: 01:38:51

difficult terms, they, they're empirically, they're always happier.

Andreas: 01:38:55

You have all these empirical, psychological and investigations

Andreas: 01:38:59

which show that those people are just, just like empirically happier

Andreas: 01:39:04

if you grew up in such a culture.

Andreas: 01:39:06

And I mean, we're not talking about depression and, and despair because they

Andreas: 01:39:12

are colonized and decimated and destroyed.

Andreas: 01:39:14

So that's an, that's on another page.

Andreas: 01:39:16

But just if you live in this so sort of culture, you're, you

Andreas: 01:39:19

live a good life because you live life, you are part of life.

Andreas: 01:39:23

And then people somehow decided, let's stop that.

Andreas: 01:39:28

We have something better . We have, we have permanence, individual permanence.

Andreas: 01:39:34

We want individual permanence fortified by possessions.

Andreas: 01:39:37

It's a very strange that this happened.

Kate: 01:39:42

I think about a lot the.

Kate: 01:39:45

When this happened or the process of it happening, because I don't

Kate: 01:39:49

think it happened and one fell swoop.

Kate: 01:39:51

I think that there were little fractures in, in this throughout time,

Kate: 01:39:57

and I wonder if in many ways it's sort of like, I don't know if you're

Kate: 01:40:02

familiar with Gabo, but, but his work in intergenerational trauma mm-hmm.

Kate: 01:40:09

And so that this, this viewpoint as it begins to fracture within society and, and

Kate: 01:40:16

become more pervasive is then inherited.

Kate: 01:40:19

And just like we lose a skill in generations, so we lose a skill of

Kate: 01:40:25

gathering or of recognizing different plant species or whatever that is,

Kate: 01:40:30

that skill becomes lost in time.

Kate: 01:40:33

The skill of knowing mm-hmm.

Kate: 01:40:37

Our place in the interconnected web of

Andreas: 01:40:41

life.

Andreas: 01:40:41

Mm-hmm.

Andreas: 01:40:43

Yeah.

Andreas: 01:40:44

I think the, the term trauma, trauma is very helpful to understand and, and it's,

Andreas: 01:40:50

it's very helpful to see the society we are part of as profoundly traumatized

Andreas: 01:40:55

as, as a trauma generating society.

Andreas: 01:41:01

And, um, so maybe it's, it, it was enough to start trauma by one huge violent action

Andreas: 01:41:07

and then generating many traumatized people who started to be violent.

Andreas: 01:41:13

Towards others.

Andreas: 01:41:14

Maybe it's possible because trauma tr tries to fortify itself.

Andreas: 01:41:22

Cause the, the, the source, the roots of trauma become untouchable

Andreas: 01:41:26

because they're so painful.

Andreas: 01:41:27

So they need to be hidden because they're hidden.

Andreas: 01:41:29

You'll, you'll be violent to others and there will be traumatized.

Andreas: 01:41:32

I mean, government describes this very well as to others.

Andreas: 01:41:36

And, and we can, we, we look back on 10,000 years of trauma history in Quest.

Andreas: 01:41:42

Yes.

Andreas: 01:41:42

And, um, yeah, that's true.

Andreas: 01:41:44

And it's, this is one of the reasons it is so difficult or impossible to,

Andreas: 01:41:52

to, to get out of this because there's an, there's a sort of natural block,

Andreas: 01:41:59

which, which, which prevents trauma to be dissolved because it's so painful.

Andreas: 01:42:04

And, and it's, it's very, so it's, you know, this, this, this strange enigma to

Andreas: 01:42:10

see a whole society, a whole civilization march into the direction of doom and

Andreas: 01:42:16

further future historians, if there, there will be this profession , um,

Andreas: 01:42:23

anymore, they, they will kind of ask them, well, why could they do this?

Andreas: 01:42:27

, it was so obvious.

Andreas: 01:42:28

But then in, in profoundly traumatized, um, communities, people behave deadly.

Andreas: 01:42:39

Or although they know.

Andreas: 01:42:41

I think that's, it's a, it's a good perspective.

Andreas: 01:42:44

Changes very much.

Andreas: 01:42:45

And you see many, many people, many hopeful, beautiful people trying to

Andreas: 01:42:51

work for mitigation of, of the worst or prevention of collapse, whatever.

Andreas: 01:42:57

They still appeal to rational faculties, which, which don't work if you, if you

Andreas: 01:43:04

have to collaborate with traumatized people, you cannot just tell them what

Andreas: 01:43:08

is the right thing to do because they won't do it cuz they're, they're, they're

Andreas: 01:43:12

guided by other forces which are, which are much deeper and much more powerful.

Andreas: 01:43:16

It's a little bit like this, but I, I, I cannot really, um, as we're,

Andreas: 01:43:23

we're at that point of like what to do, I cannot offer you any working

Andreas: 01:43:28

alternative apart from what Spinoza says, orient yourself towards life.

Andreas: 01:43:36

And, and I mean this works on a, on a, on on, on the individual

Andreas: 01:43:40

level and can work on many on the, on the level of many individuals.

Andreas: 01:43:47

And, um, it always makes sense.

Andreas: 01:43:51

Whatever the outcome, cuz that's, that's the, that's the vector, that's the

Andreas: 01:43:57

desire of the reality is to give life.

Andreas: 01:44:01

So if you do that, you're, you're good.

Andreas: 01:44:05

in a way.

Andreas: 01:44:08

. Kate: I love this.

Andreas: 01:44:09

I love this because then.

Andreas: 01:44:11

Because then I think we reenter the cycle of, of surrendering

Andreas: 01:44:15

ourselves to be transformed.

Andreas: 01:44:16

Yeah.

Andreas: 01:44:17

Yeah.

Andreas: 01:44:17

That when we go back to being in service of life, then yeah.

Andreas: 01:44:22

We have reentered that cycle.

Andreas: 01:44:24

Yes.

Andreas: 01:44:25

And I mean it's, it's, it becomes much smaller than thinking of how

Andreas: 01:44:28

to solve, how to save the planet.

Andreas: 01:44:30

You know?

Andreas: 01:44:30

That was, that was for long, for long years.

Andreas: 01:44:32

That was a professional, like, yeah, I'm trying to save the planet, which,

Andreas: 01:44:35

which, which was actually infected by the same hubris of, of those who were,

Andreas: 01:44:40

weren't trying to save the planet, but who were trying to save their portfolios.

Andreas: 01:44:44

The same hubris of, of being able to master forces, which are absolutely

Andreas: 01:44:49

beyond our, our, our power.

Andreas: 01:44:51

It's, it's, it's somehow infected by the same thing, but

Andreas: 01:44:54

it, so it can be much smaller.

Andreas: 01:44:57

Only that if it's much smaller, you, you need to follow through the whole

Andreas: 01:45:04

beautiful thought of Spinoza, which means that you, you're not even

Andreas: 01:45:08

interested in the least bit in death.

Andreas: 01:45:11

That doesn't concern you at all because you're in service of life and in practice

Andreas: 01:45:16

that's, it's quite a bit to chew on.

Andreas: 01:45:19

, as we all know.

Andreas: 01:45:22

, Kate: it's a big cookie.

Andreas: 01:45:24

Yeah, it's a big cookie.

Andreas: 01:45:25

Well, it's bigger than most of the cookies in this bag.

Andreas: 01:45:28

Yeah.

Andreas: 01:45:28

Actually, yes.

Andreas: 01:45:29

But it's very nourishing, you know?

Andreas: 01:45:31

Hmm.

Andreas: 01:45:31

. Mm-hmm.

Andreas: 01:45:33

. Very nourishing.

Andreas: 01:45:34

Yeah.

Andreas: 01:45:36

Yeah.

Kate: 01:45:38

I love that as a space to begin to, I don't, I don't want

Kate: 01:45:41

for, for both of us to turn into pumpkins at the two hour mark.

Andreas: 01:45:45

Um, yeah, how do I look?

Andreas: 01:45:46

There's some, there's some light reflected

Kate: 01:45:51

slowly becoming

Andreas: 01:45:52

pumpkin, but we can, we can prepare for, for fold back

Andreas: 01:45:56

the chairs and the, the tables and, and the preparing the dissent

Kate: 01:46:02

Preparing the dissent.

Kate: 01:46:04

But I can't, I can't let go of the invisible dimension.

Kate: 01:46:08

I would be remiss if I were to let go of where moving from embodied matter

Kate: 01:46:16

and into the invisible dimension, which, you know, called for me that

Kate: 01:46:21

we are as much, you know, we are more empty space than we are solid matter.

Kate: 01:46:26

And I just wonder if you might touch on, on the invisible dimension

Kate: 01:46:32

and where that's taking you.

Andreas: 01:46:38

Is that a prepared question or is it a follow up

Andreas: 01:46:40

to, to something I said before?

Andreas: 01:46:42

It

Kate: 01:46:43

is a follow up to something that you said before.

Andreas: 01:46:45

Okay.

Andreas: 01:46:45

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Andreas: 01:46:47

Well, um,

Andreas: 01:46:53

how can I, how can I put this?

Andreas: 01:46:54

So, so there's a, there's a term I introduced some years ago to,

Andreas: 01:46:59

in order to describe that hole, which has this, this embodied.

Andreas: 01:47:06

Aspect, and it has this invisible, I palpable un nons

Andreas: 01:47:11

spatial non temporal aspect.

Andreas: 01:47:13

And my term for that is poetic space.

Andreas: 01:47:16

Poetic because it is always generative.

Andreas: 01:47:19

And because understanding in it is always done in, in, in a poetic way.

Andreas: 01:47:25

So that means through, through participating in,

Andreas: 01:47:32

in the creativity of life.

Andreas: 01:47:33

Or you could say in terms of we have, we have been saying before through,

Andreas: 01:47:38

through giving the gift of life.

Andreas: 01:47:39

So that's, that's, I call that poetic space.

Andreas: 01:47:42

And the, the idea in that is that it is actually, it is not as

Andreas: 01:47:49

ucli space, it's not a 3D space.

Andreas: 01:47:51

It is a, a space of the potential of life of which most lies hidden to any

Andreas: 01:48:02

forms of material embodied senses.

Andreas: 01:48:06

But we still access it and, and we are in it.

Andreas: 01:48:08

Um, when, when I, I've been talking about the, the profound experience

Andreas: 01:48:13

of our own being here and being this all, and we spoke about that, what the

Andreas: 01:48:20

Sufi is called the heart of hearts.

Andreas: 01:48:22

We are in the center of this poetic space.

Andreas: 01:48:24

So we, we exist on this invisible plane all the time,

Andreas: 01:48:31

and all others exist on this.

Andreas: 01:48:34

Let's say in the, in the same.

Andreas: 01:48:36

It's, it's, it has the same reality as our bodily existence has.

Andreas: 01:48:40

Only that we, we, um, have nearly completely forgotten about it.

Andreas: 01:48:45

Um, but, but you can go there, you can go there in various ways.

Andreas: 01:48:49

You can go there by, by somehow stepping out of your, in individuality, in,

Andreas: 01:48:55

in, in allowing yourself to be just sitting with your own aliveness, which

Andreas: 01:49:02

works after some training that, that would be called the mystical path.

Andreas: 01:49:06

And you can also go there by acting, by what I've been calling

Andreas: 01:49:13

this talk, but being in service.

Andreas: 01:49:15

So you can, it's, it's also pragmatic thing.

Andreas: 01:49:18

It's, it's something which, which isn't material, but which

Andreas: 01:49:22

will let sprout materiality.

Andreas: 01:49:25

So it's, it's, it, it, it will invite, um, being somehow, um, from the

Andreas: 01:49:32

invisible side into the visible side, and you can also communicate on that.

Andreas: 01:49:37

So in a way, it's, in a way this poetic space is very similar, I think, to, to,

Andreas: 01:49:45

um, what, um, Buddhists call the ground or the, the, the luminous emptiness.

Andreas: 01:49:54

It's, it's a nice thing to realize that we are there and

Andreas: 01:50:01

that this luminous emptiness.

Andreas: 01:50:04

Has the,

Andreas: 01:50:09

how can I call it?

Andreas: 01:50:10

Has the, the, the, the, its center is the desire to give life.

Andreas: 01:50:21

You see, that's, it's very invisible because it's, uh, it's just the desire.

Andreas: 01:50:28

It's totally invisible and it's absolutely indestructible.

Andreas: 01:50:33

So that's the, the root.

Andreas: 01:50:36

And if you follow this, you, if you make yourself a tool

Andreas: 01:50:42

of this, then you create life.

Andreas: 01:50:44

Life will come into being, life will multiply, life will manifest.

Andreas: 01:50:50

And it is the experience of being alive as well, which again, is in, is invisible.

Andreas: 01:50:57

It's only in inside of yourself, but it's also contagious.

Andreas: 01:51:01

So you see, it's, this invisible space is continuously pouring into visibility.

Andreas: 01:51:09

And even if we mess it up totally as humanity, what we are currently doing,

Andreas: 01:51:13

we, we, we, it will, it won't change.

Andreas: 01:51:15

It will still pour into reality.

Andreas: 01:51:18

There's a, another quotation from second century Nagarjuna, the Buddhist sage.

Andreas: 01:51:26

It says, when all Buddhas have died, Enlightenment will burst

Andreas: 01:51:32

into being from emptiness, you see?

Andreas: 01:51:36

So that he said, I think the same thing.

Andreas: 01:51:38

So it's this, it's absolutely indestructible.

Andreas: 01:51:40

And that that is so, isn't that beautiful?

Andreas: 01:51:43

I mean, that's the source which feeds us, and that's the source

Andreas: 01:51:48

from which we feed others.

Andreas: 01:51:52

And it, it cannot go away cuz its character is that it cannot go away.

Andreas: 01:51:57

You see?

Andreas: 01:51:58

Isn't that, isn't that nice?

Andreas: 01:51:59

I mean, isn't that pretty?

Andreas: 01:52:01

I really like it, but it's, you see, it, it, I that you, you won't go and find

Andreas: 01:52:06

it somewhere under a tree, although you, you might find it somewhere under a tree.

Andreas: 01:52:11

You see?

Andreas: 01:52:12

You might find a source under a tree from which clear water

Andreas: 01:52:18

comes and then you've found it.

Andreas: 01:52:22

, you've also found it because it has transcended that invisibility

Andreas: 01:52:28

into the space of bodies.

Andreas: 01:52:31

And my my experience is that it is very important how we are be

Andreas: 01:52:36

behaving in this invisible space.

Andreas: 01:52:38

And it's, it's a place where we can do a lot with the right attitude and which has

Andreas: 01:52:46

been completely neglected by our culture.

Andreas: 01:52:49

And, um, the, all the rituals in all the cultures are actually working with

Andreas: 01:52:54

this invisible space which gives life.

Andreas: 01:52:57

So they, all the rituals are tailored to, to make this source being benevolent

Andreas: 01:53:05

and, um, cooperative and welcoming it into, into all human endeavors.

Andreas: 01:53:12

And Western people normally don't do this.

Andreas: 01:53:15

They don't even know that this exists.

Andreas: 01:53:17

Something.

Andreas: 01:53:17

Okay, let's, let's try, let's look at u some YouTube videos about manifesting

Andreas: 01:53:22

and then I can have some more stuff.

Andreas: 01:53:24

So, so it's, it's very naive and very, very, very istic, but it's very important

Andreas: 01:53:30

to, to, to, to behave well and to be, um, to be welcoming of life on this level.

Andreas: 01:53:41

And, and I think that's also something we could do and we should do.

Andreas: 01:53:46

And I think it, it will, it will do a lot because it aligns yourself to

Andreas: 01:53:55

your work in service of a aliveness.

Andreas: 01:53:59

And, um, it's something which to, to western ears really might,

Andreas: 01:54:05

will sound weird and strange.

Andreas: 01:54:08

I think.

Andreas: 01:54:09

Um, this suggestion that we need to go there and be active there

Andreas: 01:54:14

in a be benevolent way, but.

Andreas: 01:54:18

It's something, cultures which are much wiser than ours have always been doing.

Andreas: 01:54:24

That's, that's, that was there, there, the main occupation that was even, you

Andreas: 01:54:28

know, that was even the many cultures, that's even the idea of, of the role

Andreas: 01:54:37

of humans in this society of being.

Andreas: 01:54:40

They, they can do this work.

Andreas: 01:54:43

Mm-hmm.

Andreas: 01:54:44

They can care for life on the one hand, by, by, by being, by kindling life in

Andreas: 01:54:53

the ecosystem, by being fair partners to other beings in the ecosystem.

Andreas: 01:54:58

So that would be your job that the stewarding job.

Andreas: 01:55:01

And on the other hand, by calling for abundance on the invisible

Andreas: 01:55:07

side, these two roles were always, they were absolutely inseparable.

Andreas: 01:55:13

So that was in, if you, if you look at how cultures understand the,

Andreas: 01:55:17

the role of humans, it's that role.

Andreas: 01:55:19

So you see, they, we are, we are not the, the boss, we are not the

Andreas: 01:55:23

one who knows better, but we are the ones who are most called to be in

Andreas: 01:55:31

service and on, on these two planes.

Andreas: 01:55:36

And I'd say it's, it's, it's this, it's something important

Andreas: 01:55:40

to, to start this service.

Andreas: 01:55:42

If you are, if, if you are like me, somebody is, Strange from that because we

Andreas: 01:55:48

have been grown up in a western system, find our way back to this nourishing

Andreas: 01:55:55

work on the invisible dimension.

Andreas: 01:55:57

It's really, really important.

Kate: 01:56:02

Thank you very much for elucidating that.

Kate: 01:56:05

And I think , I think that actually in many ways brought us to a really

Kate: 01:56:10

beautiful place of coming back to the idea of being in service and, and part

Kate: 01:56:17

of our role here and to give people Yeah.

Kate: 01:56:20

A, a sort of tangible effort at the end of Yeah, this conversation.

Andreas: 01:56:24

And you, you know, just when you said part of our role here, you

Andreas: 01:56:29

know, people are always, no, normally people are happy when they have a role,

Andreas: 01:56:32

which is, which is actually denying and helpful and, and stewarding.

Andreas: 01:56:37

And this, it's all, this is a statistic thing.

Andreas: 01:56:40

You look at surveys, people are happy when they have a meaningful

Andreas: 01:56:44

role in the living hall.

Andreas: 01:56:46

You know, it's very easy.

Andreas: 01:56:47

They, we, we, we don't know.

Andreas: 01:56:49

We don't need all these things.

Andreas: 01:56:50

We only need them because our neighbor, our friends have more of these things.

Andreas: 01:56:54

So we also need some of these things.

Andreas: 01:56:56

And, but in the end, it's, it's, people are happy when they, when

Andreas: 01:57:00

they feel they are alive and they feel they contribute to life.

Andreas: 01:57:03

That's actually, we are made for this.

Andreas: 01:57:05

So it's, it's crazily simple.

Andreas: 01:57:08

And we're, we are somehow straight from that a little bit.

Andreas: 01:57:13

It's, it's simple.

Andreas: 01:57:14

It's actually simple.

Andreas: 01:57:18

Yeah.

Andreas: 01:57:19

Okay.

Andreas: 01:57:20

One minute before pumpkin time.

Andreas: 01:57:22

We, we, one

Kate: 01:57:23

minute before pumpkin time.

Kate: 01:57:24

We're right there.

Kate: 01:57:25

We're right at, at at midnight.

Kate: 01:57:28

Um, thank you, thank you for, for all of this.

Kate: 01:57:32

And I, I'm just so appreciative of your work and I, it, it, it is so beautiful.

Kate: 01:57:38

I don't really know how to mirror back to you what this has meant in my own journey

Kate: 01:57:46

towards stewardship, towards aliveness, towards cooperation and inter beingness.

Kate: 01:57:55

And I Yeah.

Kate: 01:57:57

Thanks.

Kate: 01:57:57

Yes.

Kate: 01:57:59

Think that so many of the threads w we tug on here, on this podcast, you have

Kate: 01:58:06

put into words in a, in a way that I feel like I am often just dancing around.

Kate: 01:58:12

And so thank you for bringing that matter forth.

Kate: 01:58:16

Uh, you know, towards the end as you were speaking, I thought

Kate: 01:58:19

about the singularities with these points of, of seeming smallness

Kate: 01:58:26

or nothingness or invisibleness from which everything comes forth.

Kate: 01:58:31

And, uh, whether it's the Big Bang or it's a seed in the soil, or it's

Kate: 01:58:36

a, a person inviting more aliveness.

Kate: 01:58:43

Into this traumatic time here on earth.

Kate: 01:58:47

And so I am, I'm very grateful for your work.

Andreas: 01:58:51

Yeah, thank you.

Andreas: 01:58:53

No, thanks.

Andreas: 01:58:53

That's, that's, um, to me, that's the experience of, um,

Andreas: 01:58:58

shared aliveness, so very good.

Andreas: 01:59:01

And, um, thanks for the, for this, the, the poetic space you

Andreas: 01:59:05

offered here in the last two hours.

Andreas: 01:59:08

Yeah,

Kate: 01:59:09

yeah.

Kate: 01:59:09

Where can I send, where can people find you?

Kate: 01:59:12

I will have links to all of your work,

Andreas: 01:59:15

but Yeah.

Andreas: 01:59:17

Well, , where can people find you, sounds like from tomorrow?

Andreas: 01:59:21

Cue in front of my door.

Andreas: 01:59:23

I need to have to jump out at the window.

Andreas: 01:59:26

. No, I mean you, you probably, if you have did some re if you did some research.

Andreas: 01:59:32

So what, what would be helpful actually?

Andreas: 01:59:35

What, what would you need?

Andreas: 01:59:36

Like, um, my, you'll probably have my English language website and

Andreas: 01:59:41

Yes, and I mean, it's, if you, there will be some books, so if people are

Andreas: 01:59:45

interested and there's the, have, have you, have you taken the Avaya

Andreas: 01:59:49

course I gave before Christmas?

Andreas: 01:59:51

No, because, because that's also because it is very much, very

Andreas: 02:00:00

much my work right now to explore this, this invisible dimension.

Andreas: 02:00:05

So it, it was, um, Somewhat familiar.

Andreas: 02:00:09

The, the climate I've, I've been teaching.

Andreas: 02:00:12

So I'll, I'll send you so you people can still get it.

Andreas: 02:00:16

So it's still there only in, in recorded form.

Andreas: 02:00:18

So I'll send you this as well.

Andreas: 02:00:20

I can think a little bit about some more links, whatever to, to, to send to you.

Andreas: 02:00:25

Yeah.

Andreas: 02:00:26

So if there's anything you'd really you need in concrete terms,

Andreas: 02:00:32

tell me I, I try to find it.

Kate: 02:00:35

No, I can, I can link to all of this and, and the course especially,

Kate: 02:00:39

it's something that I'll dive into as

Andreas: 02:00:41

well.

Andreas: 02:00:41

Send you the course sent, send you the course because I was actually

Andreas: 02:00:45

really happy how it went and I think the participants were as well.

Andreas: 02:00:49

And it's so, it, it was really centering about these, these topics

Andreas: 02:00:53

and doing, also doing some in inner invisible dimension work somehow

Andreas: 02:01:00

and, um, sitting together online.

Andreas: 02:01:02

But it works well.

Andreas: 02:01:04

Yeah.

Andreas: 02:01:05

So, okay, so I'll, let me somehow, let me write it on this sheet of paper.

Kate: 02:01:10

I can also, sorry, I can also remind you via email remind if you don't

Andreas: 02:01:15

wanna write anything already realized.

Andreas: 02:01:16

I'm, I'm, cause I'm, I'm somehow, um, a bad rememberer . I try to not

Andreas: 02:01:25

at remember only the most urgent things and well my website for sure.

Andreas: 02:01:30

Yep.

Andreas: 02:01:31

And I have that I go to, I'm going to do, um, And onsite

Andreas: 02:01:36

course in Italy in early fall.

Andreas: 02:01:41

Mm.

Andreas: 02:01:43

So, let's see.

Andreas: 02:01:44

I'm, I somehow hesitated to do this because it's a lot of organization, but I,

Andreas: 02:01:48

I think I'll going, I'm going to do this.

Andreas: 02:01:50

So that will be on that, that website if somebody wants to deepen this.

Andreas: 02:01:54

Okay.

Andreas: 02:01:54

If anything you feel anything is missing, then tell me Sure.

Andreas: 02:01:59

That

Kate: 02:01:59

I will, I will.

Kate: 02:02:01

Um, Thank you so much.

Kate: 02:02:05

Thank you so much for

Andreas: 02:02:07

listening to this episode of The Mind, body and Soil Podcast.

Kate: 02:02:11

If what you found resonated with you, may I ask that you

Kate: 02:02:15

share it with your friends or

Andreas: 02:02:16

leave us a rating and review wherever you listen to podcasts.

Andreas: 02:02:20

This act of reciprocity

Kate: 02:02:22

helps others find mind, body, and soil.

Kate: 02:02:25

If you're looking for more,

Andreas: 02:02:26

you can find

Kate: 02:02:27

us@groundworkcollective.com and at Kate underscore

Andreas: 02:02:32

Kavanaugh.

Andreas: 02:02:33

That's k a t e underscore K A V A N A U

Kate: 02:02:39

G H On Instagram.

Kate: 02:02:41

I would like to give a very special thank you to China and Seth Kent of the

Kate: 02:02:45

band, allright Allright for the clips from their beautiful song over the

Kate: 02:02:49

Edge from their album, the Crucible.

Kate: 02:02:51

You can find them at Allright allright on Instagram and